Barbara Fleming interview

Colorado State University Libraries Archives & Special Collections University Archive

Transcription of Barbara Fleming Interview, 2019 June 25

Item Metadata

Collection: CSU Sesquicentennial Collection (USES)

Creator: Fleming, Barbara, interviewee; Boring, Frank (Documentary film producer), interviewer Title: Barbara Fleming interview

Date: 2019 June 25

File Name: USES_005_Fleming_Barbara_access.mp4 Date Transcribed: April 2021

Editor: Helen Baer

Transcription Platform: Rev.com

BEGIN TRANSCRIPTION Speaker 1:

Frank, [inaudible 00:00:01] down for a second? Frank B.: Oh, sure. Speaker 1: Thank you. Frank B.: Okay. Speaker 2:

You see it? You rolling? Speaker 1:

Yeah. Frank B.:

Move it out this way a little. Speaker 2:

Speaker 1:

Hold it straight. Okay, that's good. Speaker 2:

All right. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 1: It's a tough job. Speaker 3:

Don't trip on yourself. Speaker 1:

Okay. We're rolling. Frank B.:

All right. My name is Frank Boring. I have been hired by CSU to produce a documentary film for the 150th sesquicentennial of CSU. And so we can begin. Barbara, what is your full name and where and when were you born, if I could ask?

Barbara F.:

My name is Barbara Fleming and I am a native of Fort Collins. I was born at Larimer County Hospital, when it was Larimer County Hospital, in 1936.

Frank B.:

Okay. And what got you interested in Fort Collins history? Barbara F.:

I have always been interested in history. When I was a child, I used to go to the Carnegie Library on Mathews Street and behind it was the Pioneer Museum. And I would spend hours in the Pioneer Museum just prowling around. So when I went to college, I wanted to be a history teacher, but this was in the 1950s, and I was told, "You'll never get a job. Women don't do that." So, I majored in English instead, but I have always been fascinated by and loved history.

Frank B.:

And where did you go to college? Barbara F.:

I went to Colorado State University, which was Colorado A&M College at the time. Frank B.:

From the research I've done in your books, the earliest records we found was evidence of people in this area called the Folsom Man. I wonder if you could talk about that?

Barbara F.:

That site was discovered in the 1920s by two local men, and they found that these people apparently lived here for a period of time, around 11000 years ago. They left some artifacts, some tools for carving and so forth. But we know very little about how they lived, what they ate, what kind of dwelling they had or anything of that nature. In the 1930s, the Smithsonian came and did some more excavating and there are artifacts on display at the Smithsonian in Washington.

Frank B.:

In terms of your research, who roamed the land after them? What were the first evidences that other people came through Larimer County and what is now this area?

Barbara F.:

There is very little trace of anything until around the time the French trappers started coming in the late 18th, early 19th centuries. And there they encountered several different tribes of Native Americans. In this area, particularly, there were Arapaho, Pawnee, Lakota, and Cheyenne.

Frank B.:

And from what we know, what was their relationship between the different tribes? Barbara F.:

Oh, they fought. Frank B.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-Barbara F.:

They fought over hunting grounds, and they fought over dominance over each other. But not all the time. And I would say probably a fair amount of the time they just kept out of each other's way. Frank B.:

And how long... of the earliest, you mentioned the French trappers. What other peoples came through during the early days?

Barbara F.:

A few explorers came. In 1847, I think, John Wesley Powell came and then some other people. Not very far into the area, though, because it was so dense and so difficult to penetrate that they didn't get very far in their explorations. And most of the exploring took place farther west. But there were some explorations here.

Frank B.:

Barbara F.: No. Frank B.: Okay. Barbara F.:

The trappers were the first settlers in the valley, and they began what they initially called Colona, which became Laporte. And it wasn't really even a town. It was just a little cluster of buildings.

Frank B.:

What can you tell us about Camp Collins and why was that established? Barbara F.:

Camp Collins was established in July of 1862 because the Native Americans were not happy about their hunting grounds being invaded. And the Overland Trail, which goes just west and north of Fort Collins--what became Fort Collins--was being besieged by attacking natives. And so Fort Laramie had been established earlier than that and the commander of Fort Laramie, William O. Collins, sent a troop of cavalry down here to establish a camp, the purpose of which was to protect the settlers coming along the Overland Trail. And that was established just as a small cavalry camp, with the troops riding out to protect the settlers.

Frank B.:

Were there other people besides the natives that were a problem to the settlers? Barbara F.:

Not that history records. Frank B.:

Okay. I was thinking about bandits and things like that. Okay. Barbara F.:

Possibly. But you don't find much evidence of it in history. Frank B.:

What happened to Camp Collins? Barbara F.:

In 1st of June, 1864, what Ansel Watrous called a great body of water, came down from the mountains. The Poudre River overflowed. The camp was inundated. Nobody died, but some of the soldiers just barely escaped with their lives. So it was declared that they needed a new location on higher ground. So the story goes, and nobody's ever disproved it, that Captain Evans sent Lieutenant James Hannah down the river to find a higher spot, and he met a man named Joe Mason. Well Joe Mason was... actually, he had been a descendant of a French trapper and had changed his name to Mason. But he met the young

lieutenant and promoted land that was right next to his little store, and the story goes that there was a little black bottle involved. Nobody's been able to prove or disprove that story. So I like it.

Barbara F.:

So they chose the higher ground, which became Fort Collins, and nobody quite knows why we went from Camp to Fort, except Watrous says it just sounded a little more distinguished.

Frank B.:

So, what was Fort Collins like prior to the creation of the Agricultural College? Barbara F.:

It was just a scattered settlement of some ranchers. So mostly trappers who worked up and down the river and traded at Laporte and businesses began to pop up along the river so that we have now that triangular piece in downtown--Old Town--which is where the original settlements happened. And there really were not... there was not anything you could call a civilized settlement here until about 1868-69. The Fort was decommissioned in 1867. But the government took five years to release the land. People, however, did settle on it regardless of whether the government had released it.

Barbara F.:

But when it was finally released in 1872, then a consortium of businessmen decided to establish a town here. But before that, there were people led by a man named Harris Stratton and involved several other founders of the town--you would recognize their names because streets are named after them--decided if Fort Collins, if the little settlement was to survive, the land-grant college needed to come here. And that was... well, Colorado was still a territory and Fort collins wasn't even officially a town.

Frank B.:

Looking at Fort Collins at the time you're describing, before the Agricultural College, you mentioned that it was basically just a few buildings and what-not and people coming and going. Was it very much like the Wild West that we've heard about?

Barbara F.:

I think you could safely say it was a somewhat Wild West. I wouldn't call it the Wild West a la the movies. We didn't have shoot-outs all the time. There was very little in the way of law enforcement, however. There was a U.S. Marshal. We didn't really even have a sheriff at the time. So, rustlers were handled by their victims. There were some shootings. One hanging that I know of. And when Isabella Bird came here in 1872, she pronounced this little town positively disgusting. She said it was full of flies and had coarse food, coarse people, coarse everything. She didn't see why anybody would ever want to live here. Frank B.:

What were some of the environmental challenges of this small community? What kind of things were going on? It was a desert area. What kind of environmental things happened?

Barbara F.:

Drought. There was a serious drought between 1872 and 1875. Watrous calls it The Terrible Years because they had no way to combat it. That's part of what the Agricultural Colleges were for, to help

figure out better ways to deal with agricultural mishaps. Agricultural catastrophes. Nobody knew much about anything like irrigation or dealing with infestations. We had a terrible infestation of grasshoppers in 1872 and it was so bad that people would hang clothes out on clotheslines and the grasshoppers would eat them. There were just hordes and hordes and hordes of them. And they had no idea how to deal with them. So a lot of people who had come here to farm just up and left. We dealt with drought. We dealt with... Once, there was a flood. We dealt with lack of information, mainly, about how to treat the land. How to be husbands to the land in such an unfamiliar environment.

Frank B.:

What effect did the Civil War have on Fort Collins or the surrounding area? Barbara F.:

I would have to say very little. William O. Collins assembled his Ohio Cavalry, 11th Ohio, in hopes of going off to fight for the Union. But instead he was sent to Fort Laramie. The only thing that happened around here was the Battle of Glorieta Pass, which was considerably south of where Fort Collins is. I would say minimal impact, in part because these are the days before smartphones and Internet and any easy means of communication. So people didn't even really know what was happening unless a newspaper came by mail, which was a happy and rare occurrence, to let them know what was happening with the war.

Frank B.:

What was this battle you were just referring to? Barbara F.:

Glorieta Pass? It took place... It's near the border of Colorado and New Mexico. It was the South's attempt to come around up through Texas into the West in hopes of coming back toward the Union Army from a different direction. And they were soundly defeated.

Frank B.:

And was there some attempt by the families of these settlers... I'm assuming as people came into Fort Collins, you said there's ranchers. There's farmers. They had children, I would think.

Barbara F.: They did. Frank B.:

How were children educated prior to the Agricultural College? Barbara F.:

Well, Elizabeth Stone came here in 1864 with her husband, and she had a building that was actually on the Fort, which was a mess for the officers. The next year, she sent for her niece, who had been widowed, her name was Elizabeth [Keyes 00:15:18]. And she came out here. It's just almost impossible to imagine. In a wagon, escorted by a man named Henry Peterson for whom Peterson Street is named. And she brought her 11-year-old son, Willie. Well, he didn't have a school to go to. So she decided to

start a school for Willie. Word got around and Elizabeth Keyes is considered the first teacher in Fort Collins. So she held school on the second floor of her aunt's house.

Frank B.:

I'm going to continue that theme as we move forward in the story. But that's excellent because it does give us a better idea. I think there's just too much assumptions about the past that there were schools and kids went to school. What I find fascinating about the early days of the Agricultural College is that it wasn't as if you took an SAT exam and then you got in. So I want to continue on that theme as we move forward.

Frank B.:

We've already interviewed Tony Frank-Barbara F.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-Frank B.:

-about Lincoln and the Morrill Act. So I don't think you need to go into the details of that, but what can you tell us about the very creation of this Agricultural College? Why, what, how? As much as you can talk about.

Barbara F.:

I believe, and I think most local historians do also, that acquiring the college here had a great deal to do with the very survival of the town because it would be an employer. It would not only offer education, which, as an aside, was very different from what we consider a university education nowadays. It was really in the beginning pretty well equivalent to high school. But it would provide that education, which was nearly unavailable in the whole West. So to bring a college here would lend the settlement prestige. And dignity. And promise for the future.

Frank B.:

And so how... I know enough of the background of this, but I'm not here talking about it. But, why was Fort Collins successful in having it here? Why not somewhere else?

Barbara F.:

Good question. I think that question has been pondered by a great many people. I attribute it in a large part to our location. We really became, pretty early before we were even a town, a northern Colorado hub. And I think the location made a huge difference in our survival. In the college's survival.

Frank B.:

So, who were some of the people that came up with this idea of this land-grant colleges available to states across the country? Colorado is a big state. Of course, it wasn't a state, right? It was a territory. Barbara F.:

Frank B.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-Barbara F.:

Well, Harris Stratton whom I mentioned--who, by the way, became Elizabeth Keyes' husband later. Harris Stratton and Benjamin Whedbee and some of the other town founders, Henry Peterson. There was a small group of men who wanted to invest in the future of a promising community, even before it had become an official community. And I think probably that you could call them visionaries. I think you really have to call them visionaries because they saw things. They saw a future that most other people didn't see. They were living day-to-day, most people. Surviving the day. I get up this morning. I do my chores. I do what I have to do to get through the day. I go to bed. I get up the next morning, and I do the same thing all over again. But they envisioned a different kind of future.

Frank B.:

So what challenges did the residents have to establish the college in Fort Collins? Barbara F.:

Well, for one, persuading the territorial legislature. And Harris Stratton was a huge factor in that. He must have been a very articulate man because he did persuade them that we would be a better location than Greeley because Greeley was Union Colony at the time. Had been established by a man named Robert Cameron and there was barely anything to it and it was farther east, less accessible. So Harris Stratton made a case before the legislature. And then they had to establish a land claim. Where would this be? Where would they put this college? And a great deal of land was owned by Peterson, Joe Mason, some other men who donated land to allow the college to be built. And in 1870, they plowed some land to make a claim. You probably know all of this. And built a claim building. And that's how they established before Greeley could do the same thing. That's how they established that it would be here. Speaker 1:

Barbara, can you pull your right shoulder [inaudible 00:21:38]? Thank you. Barbara F.:

Buffalo Bill Cody came in about 1915, and he was quite dismayed that there was no plaque honoring the men who had donated the land, so they put up a plaque because of Bill Cody.

Frank B.:

We have some footage of one of Cody's entourage of people with the little Teddy the Bear, the black bear. There is some footage of it.

Barbara F.: Wow. Frank B.:

Yeah. I'll show you that. Barbara F.:

Yeah. Frank B.:

What would you say the ethnic make-up of early Fort Collins... My thinking is that I'm trying to visualize the people that are coming here. The people that were here. What was the real early days of Fort Collins? What was the ethnic makeup? Who were here?

Barbara F.:

One hundred percent Anglo whatever you want to call us. Many of the early settlers were soldiers who stayed after the Fort was decommissioned. Many people, for reasons I have never figured out, came from upstate New York. And in the beginning, there were no ethnic minorities that I am aware of. Frank B.:

And the Native Americans, of course, were taken off the land and put onto reservations-Barbara F.:

In 1878 they were all forced onto reservations, yes. Antoine Janis was the one man who went with his wife to the Pine Ridge Reservation. All the other trappers who had married Lakota or Arapaho women divorced them, so they could keep their land.

Frank B.:

Jim Hansen's book, in the prologue, he describes an event... I said I didn't have any dates. I have a date: July 27th of 1878 where the residents of Fort Collins gathered to celebrate the cornerstone laying of the first actual building. Can you talk about that?

Barbara F.:

I don't know a lot about that. Frank B.:

Okay, well he did. Barbara F.: Good. Frank B.:

Yeah. Tell me about the Grange. Barbara F.:

The Grange was a group of men who were farmers and they established the Grange here even before Fort collins became a town. In fact, it was the members of the Grange who were the ones that plowed the land and built the first claim building.

Frank B.:

Barbara F.:

The Grange is an organization to promote and educate agricultural people, farmers primarily. Granges have gone the way of many other things now. There is still a Grange building out on Laporte Avenue, though. I don't know what it's used for now.

Frank B.:

Today we take for granted the basic necessities of electricity, heat, and water. Can you talk about some of the progression, if you will, of how Fort Collins had to deal with the drinking water? How do you see at night? Can you talk about the early days in terms of how did people cope with these challenges? Barbara F.:

Fort Collins acquired electricity in the late 1870s and there is quite a story about that. We hadn't had electricity for maybe more than a month when a man named James Howe came out of his house, which was on Riverside Drive, and chased after his wife, who was leaving him. James Howe was frequently inebriated and he was inebriated that day, as well. He grabbed his wife, took a knife and slashed her throat in front of the whole town.

Barbara F.:

Well, in this case mob rule took over. He was promptly grabbed, arrested and that night he was hung. And it was very curious because they had only acquired electricity a very short while before that. But that night, while the hanging was going on, the electricity failed to function. The minute James Howe was dead, the electricity went together. Electricity... all the utilities were private. Fort Collins is an amazing town because in 1936, in the depths of the Depression, they voted to have a municipal power plant, which was a very rare thing at the time.

Frank B.:

How did people get water? Barbara F.:

From the river, mainly, which was not a healthy thing to do. And when the Water Works was built out on Overland Trail in 1882, it was to fight fires, because the way they fought fires before that time was the bucket brigade: buckets, bucket, bucket. The ones closest would get singed and they would go to the back and pour more buckets. So they wanted a hose team. They wanted hoses to fight fires because fire was a huge problem here. Huge. In 1881, a hotel downtown burned and two people died. So that was kind of a catalyst for building a Water Works. But it was said, even though people were excited about being able to turn on the tap and get water coming out of the faucet, the only things that were filtered out at that plant on Overland Trail were logs and dead horses. So it wasn't exactly sanitary water. Barbara F.:

In 1899, there was a terrible outbreak of typhoid and the germ theory of disease was just beginning to take hold at that time. So they sent for a man from Denver. Nobody could figure out where this came from. They sent for a man from Denver who discovered that the outbreak had been caused by a woman who was treating a relative and dumping the refuse into the river. Time for a new Water Works! So they built the Water Works up in Poudre Canyon, what is now Gateway Park. And it was much more sanitary. But people didn't know then that you had to clean water. They didn't know that there was... full of bugs.

Frank B.:

Talk about the advent, negotiation and the eventual contract with the train coming into Fort Collins. Barbara F.:

Two things saved Fort Collins: one was the college, and the other was the train. And when I tell people that when that train came down the track on Mason Street everybody cheered, they just laugh. They can't even imagine it because it's such an impediment now. But, again, there was a group of people, a man named Loveland for one, who were invested in having a train here from Denver because the train would bring people. It would bring goods. It would take goods for trade. And they considered it critically important. I don't know much about the details of the contract and so forth. Ken Jessen is much more up on that than I am, but I do know that there was a concerted effort to get a train here and that the first train appeared in September 1877.

Frank B.:

What would you say... We talked earlier about the residents of Fort Collins recognizing that an

Agricultural College would be important to the community. We talked about the visionaries. So would you say in the very beginning, the relationship between the people in Fort Collins, and the beginning stage of this college were cooperative, collaborative?

Barbara F.:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And the early residents definitely recognized the importance of the college. Absolutely. Frank B.:

I want to go back to water just briefly. We found pictures of the earliest fire brigade. Could you tell us about the next step forward from grabbing buckets, getting singed, running back, grabbing buckets? What about the fire brigade? How did that evolve?

Barbara F.:

Well, they developed hose teams, and the water was pumped to stations to pumps around downtown, and they had to hook up the hose. It must have been quite a process because they had... When a fire alarm went off they had to get to the pump, hook up the hose, turn on the water, and then it took about 10 men to haul the hose to the fire. But it was considered much more efficient than the buckets, and I'm sure it did a better job of putting out the fires. However, this was a volunteer team and actually hose brigades competed with each other. I have a picture, I think in Fort Collins: A Pictorial History of that hose team that competed... Yeah, just like that. And I think it must have been really tough work. Watrous suggests--I think he had a good sense of humor--that maybe sometimes fires were not accidental because they always got a drink. Firemen always got a drink after the fire. Until Fort Collins went dry, that is.

Frank B.:

Yeah, we've heard that story. The saloons were open, and so they were very grateful to the firemen and then there were people that witnessed this and said, "This is a good idea."

Barbara F.:

Frank B.:

So, when E. Edwards was brought to be the first president of this Agricultural College, he brought his family, and in his diary, he talks about the town of Fort Collins, because he had two young girls. Why would he be concerned in the 1860s about having his children or having his wife or whatever going into the actual town of Fort Collins? What were the conditions during that time?

Barbara F.:

Well, as I said earlier, law enforcement was minimal and saloons proliferated. And I told you about Isabella Bird finding this a coarse and unpleasant community. Plus, when Avery laid out the city, the town, he made the streets very wide so wagons could turn around, is what is said... 150 feet for College and Mountain Avenues, 100 feet for residential streets. You don't find many towns that have streets that wide. Popular, maybe, with wagon drivers, not popular with the ladies. These were not paved streets. They were full of horse droppings and when it rained it was muddy. When it didn't rain it was dusty. They didn't like it at all. They don't like going into town.

Barbara F.:

The boardwalks were uncomfortable. And what was there for them anyway? The town had very few what you would call amenities, so there wasn't much for them to do. Plus, Mr. Edwards was an extremely religious man. I'm sure Hansen must have mentioned the restrictions he imposed on the students when he first came. They had to go to chapel every day and that they had to be morally upright and so forth.

Frank B.:

And Fort Collins wasn't necessarily morally upright at the time. Barbara F.:

No. I don't think you could say that. Frank B.:

Do you want to take a little water? Barbara F.:

Yes. I think I would like to do that. Speaker 1:

[inaudible 00:35:38] tuck in now a little bit. Frank B.:

Are we okay? Speaker 1:

Yeah. The one side of your shirt is misbehaving. Barbara F.:

I know. I don't know why it's doing that. Speaker 1:

It's fine. It's okay, though. Barbara F.:

I think it's the mic. Speaker 1:

The mic pulling on it. Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's good. You look fabulous! Frank B.:

So do you feel comfortable talking about Edwards and about the first president? I mean, we do have information about him, but I'd like to hear your perspective if you have done some research on him. Barbara F.:

I have done some, yes. I don't think he really had a good idea about how to be a college administrator. I'm not sure anybody had a really good idea, especially a co-ed college. Women going to college was a whole new concept that very few people knew how to deal with. There were maybe a dozen colleges in the whole country that admitted women. And now here came these land-grant colleges women could go. And I don't know this, but I suspect Mr. Edwards saw that stipulation as quite out of his opinion about what women should and shouldn't do.

Frank B.:

Speaking of the students again, I had mentioned earlier that I was going to continue the theme of education.

Barbara F.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-Frank B.:

So now there's a college and what kind of education did the farmers and the people in the surrounding area that would eventually try to attend college, what kind of education did they get? Here we get kindergarten, elementary school and high school,

etc.-Barbara F.:

Not high school. We didn't really have high school here until about the turn of the century. As I said earlier, the curriculum at the college was pretty much on the level of what people would study in high school now. Well, they had science. All the sciences that were known at the time. They had English, of course, and American history. There was nothing along the line of social sciences. Nothing of that nature. It was strictly readin', writin' and 'rithmetic. They would have had math. But they didn't know what to do

with the women. Women's brains weren't capable of understanding all of those complicated things, so they created a domestic curriculum. And it wasn't until women like Inga Allison came along and said, "Women can do more than learn how to be good domestic wives and mothers" that the curriculum began to expand and it really didn't integrate into the full curriculum until about the 1920s under Charles Lory.

Frank B.:

I want to get back to Inga in a little bit. So the parents of the children of Fort Collins and the surrounding area now had this college there. And you're saying that they did not have a high school. So then, how did somebody get into the college? How did they actually get in? Did they just apply?

Barbara F.:

They just applied. Be able to pay the tuition. Frank B.:

There was no tuition, though. Barbara F.:

You had to pay to go. You had to pay to live here. They didn't have any dormitories or anything like that. A man named George Glover came here in the 1880s and he lived in Old Main, as did Mr. Edwards in the beginning, which must have been horrible. In any case, George Glover lived in the basement and worked as a janitor in order to pay his way because you just had to make your own way. Most of the students lived in town and came to the school. Didn't have any on-campus housing at all.

Frank B.:

I want to jump ahead because I don't want to forget about Inga. Tell us about that remarkable woman. Barbara F.:

I do a presentation called Strength, Courage, Resilience: The Legacy of Women in Fort Collins, and she is one of my stars. She was determined that women were going to have an expanded curriculum. That women... well, for example, were going to learn not just domestic skills, but how to be good parents. How to care for their children physically, emotionally, psychologically. And she was an ardent feminist at a time when it was difficult. Now Colorado did give women the vote in 1893, the first state to do so by popular vote, which is a coup for us. But that didn't mean that women were suddenly blossoming out. We needed women like Grace Espy Patton and Inga Allison and some of the others who came along to pave the way. And she was a paver.

Frank B.:

What was one of the distinctions that we know about her? What was one of the things that was her quote claim to fame so to speak?

Barbara F.:

She performed experiments with the help of Charles Lory, about high-altitude baking. We have, as far as I know, the only high-altitude baking laboratory in the country in the West. And it was thanks to her. She and Lory went up Fall River Road once and she tried to bake an angel food cake. It came out like this. So

they went back and did experiments with limited equipment that they had and figured out the adjustments that she needed to make. Women coming here from other places, and I've always wondered how pioneer women did this, would make biscuits that were hard as rocks because they didn't have any clue about adjusting baking soda or baking powder, water or liquids, anything like that. They had no clue until Inga Allison came along and did these experiments and figured it out. She was, I think, a genius.

Frank B.:

Can you tell us more? I read about this. This was not just a... she and Lory went up there and did this once. This was a series of experiments.

Barbara F.: Oh, yes. Frank B.:

Please tell us more about this. Barbara F.:

But they had to create their own equipment. They didn't even have a laboratory. They had to just find a little place to do it. She did all kinds of experiments, not just at high altitudes, but here, 5000 feet thereabouts. And she was a scientist, so they worked with adjusting the ingredients until they got the right thing. It took years. She started about 1911. And it was the 1920s before the laboratory was finally built.

Frank B.:

So now we have good biscuits! Barbara F.:

Yes. Speaker 1:

Thank God for her. Barbara F.:

Yes. Speaker 2:

We'd be eating hotcakes... hard hotcakes. Frank B.:

Who were some of the other women that you talk about? Barbara F.:

Frank B.: If possible, yes. Barbara F.:

Yeah. Miriam Palmer is one of my stars. She, for reasons that are obscure to me, did studies of aphids. And I don't even really know exactly what aphids are, except they're bugs. But she became world famous for her illustrations and she wrote two books about aphids. She worked at the college.

Barbara F.:

Let's see who else would be-Frank B.:

There's a librarian... Bell, is it? Barbara F.:

Maude Bell was one of the first teachers who came here. In fact, it was her early demise that brought Inga Allison to the campus. But in the beginning, there were only three teachers for the women. See, this is what happens when you're 83, the names just kind of go away. I know them perfectly well, but I don't necessarily know them right now.

Frank B.:

That's okay. That's okay. Speaker 2:

Eliza Routt? Frank B.: Eliza Routt? Barbara F.:

I don't know much about her. Frank B.:

Okay. Speaker 2: Libby Coy? Barbara F.:

Libby Coy was the daughter of John and Emily Coy. Theirs is an interesting story, not necessarily related to anything having to do with this, but they came here in 1865 and settled on bottom land on the river. And for three years, Emily Coy made a home out of a half-disintegrated shack. Had three children. Her husband built the barn before he built their house. But their daughter went to college and graduated. And by the way, Elizabeth Keyes, to go back to her for a minute, was a star at debate. She won debate

contests, which women weren't supposed to do. But she did. And then, she got married and that was the end of her educational life.

Frank B.:

We also have the distinction of having soon after the first graduating class, which was the three, an African American, Norman St. Clair. Are you familiar with him at all?

Barbara F.:

I wrote about him. Frank B.:

Please tell us all about him. Barbara F.:

Yes. He came here-Frank B.:

Start with his name, please. Barbara F.:

Now that's the tricky part. Frank B.:

(Laughs). Norman-Barbara F.:

Norman. Frank B.:

Yeah. Grafton St. Clair. Barbara F.:

Yes. Frank B.: Well anyway. Barbara F.:

Norman Grafton St. Clair. Thank you. I'm glad somebody knows. He came here because he couldn't get into any other schools and he was a brilliant man who later became, as I recall, an educator and a legislator. And he was the only black student on the campus.

What I find interesting is that the only black student on the ag college campus, only a few years after the first graduating class, and yet he excelled here. People welcomed him. He was really like a star.

Barbara F.:

He was. And that's very interesting. There was a black family here. A man named Charlie Clay who had bought his way out of slavery and came here. Quite a character. And his was the only African-American family in town and people loved Charlie. He was much loved. And Norman St. Clair was also venerated and appreciated and valued, yes.

Barbara F.:

It is interesting. Things changed. World War I changed a great many things. Frank B.:

In what respect? Barbara F.:

I think it brought discrimination here, particularly against people with German-sounding names. In the beginning, when the sugar beet factory was opened in 1903, the first workers were Germans from Russia. Don't call them Russian Germans. They don't like that. They are Germans from Russia. And they were hard-working, industrious people who eventually worked their way out of the beet fields and then they were replaced by the Mexican immigrants coming in about 1915 when there was a civil war in Mexico.

Barbara F.:

But these people were established residents of this area, but they had German names. And during World War II... or World War I, I beg your pardon, many of these people were shunned. Their businesses had to close right here in Fort Collins. It was, I think, a turning point.

Barbara F.:

You talked earlier about how the town and the college related to each other. I see that changing somewhat also during World War I and following World War I because Fort Collins began to be a city, a town if you will, on its own feet. Not relying entirely on the college any more, as it had in the beginning. College was not the major employer. We had the sugar beet factor, which was a major employer. We had some other industries. We had businesses that were sustaining the community in different ways and I don't think it was animosity necessarily as that there was a difference... a distance of cultures.

Frank B.:

Yeah. During World War II... we have a very distinguished emeritus faculty here, John Matsushima. Barbara F.:

I know John. Frank B.:

Barbara F.: Charming man. Frank B.:

Incredible personality and I've done an interview with him already, and so I was just so pleased. But he had the same situation happen with the Japanese.

Barbara F.:

Yes, with the Japanese [crosstalk 00:51:15]. He wouldn't talk about it with me when I interviewed him. He's in my Legendary Locals book.

Frank B.:

Yeah. He's not bitter. I find it interesting. I think he overcame all the small minds and the prejudices and rose above all of them.

Barbara F.: He did. Frank B.:

And to this day he is still [inaudible 00:51:38]. The students and faculty of the college that had to come into Fort Collins for basic necessities that weren't available on campus. We're still talking about the early days of Fort Collins. What were some of the problems that the students, the administrators... what did they have just to go into town to shop? Were there problems with... and they had to live somewhere too, right? The students

had-Barbara F.:

Yeah. There was no housing on campus for a long time. Frank B.:

Can you talk about that, please? Barbara F.:

I believe that the first dormitory was not built until the 1920s and it was for men, not for women. We didn't have a lot of students coming from out of town at that time. And what students would do who did come from out of town, there were a lot of boarding houses here. So they would stay in a boarding house and study. They didn't do what students do nowadays and rent houses three or four of them at a time because there wasn't that much housing available. But they also, sometimes a student would just stay with an individual family and that became unwieldy as the college started to grow. It started to grow, really after Lory became president. That was one of his major accomplishments was expanding the curriculum, moving women into the full curriculum and expanding the college. My parents knew Lory well.

One of the things that may or may not make it into the documentary, but I would really like to have this as we start to develop publicity for the project and publicity for the preservation project, which is a primary thing that we're concerned about now. We have over 8000 films, tapes, what-not that if we don't do something with them, they're going to fall apart.

Barbara F.: Yes. Frank B.:

We are in the process of saving them. I am new to Fort Collins. I got here in 2017, didn't even know what a land-grant college was. Hopefully I know a little bit more now. But I live on Laurel Street. There's Peterson Street, there is... it Whedbee? Could you talk about some of the street names and who are these people named after?

Barbara F.:

Uncle Ben Whedbee was one of the early settlers, part of the initial consortium which, by the way, was called the Agricultural Colony, not Fort Collins. Nobody quite knows how it slid into being Fort Collins, but within a year, it was Fort Collins. Maybe the Agricultural Colony was too much of a mouthful. I don't know. Robert Cameron, who helped settle the town--Cameron Pass is named for him--established the Union Colony and another colony near Colorado Springs, so he wanted us to be called the Agricultural Colony. Anyway, that's an aside.

Barbara F.:

I just lost my train of thought. Frank B.:

Peterson, Whedbee-Barbara F.:

Whedbee had a store and they called him Uncle Ben and he was an upstanding member of the

community. Much loved. Henry Peterson came here in the 1860s. Started growing hay and was so poor in the beginning that he used hay sacks to make his pants out of. He freighted hay back and forth between Colorado and Kansas and then he had a successful trip or two and began to prosper a little bit and eventually Henry Peterson and Elizabeth Stone started the first flour mill in Fort Collins, which is still going as Ranch-Way Feeds. The longest established business in Fort Collins. And then he also helped her start a brick works.

Frank B.:

Coming into the campus, there is a street called Howes. Barbara F.:

Alfred Howes was, again... what Franklin Avery did, he named the streets after the city founders so we have Loomis after Abner Loomis, and we have Howes after Alfred Howes. Mason is Joe Mason, whom I mentioned earlier with the little black bottle. He was a merchant. Remington was named for George Remington, who was one of the early businessmen here. Mathews was another founder of the town.

Peterson. Stover. Smith was named for Dr. Timothy Smith, who was the first doctor in town. He was the Fort doctor, and he delivered the first Anglo child that was born here who was Agnes Mason, who was not Joe Mason's but Joe Mason's brother, Augustine's, child. And Dr. Smith was an interesting character because at the age of 70-something, he remarried and his wife had twins.

Barbara F.:

But they lived in the hotel I mentioned earlier that caught fire in 1881 and they barely escaped with their lives. And we don't know what happened to him after that. Maybe he left town. But Smith Street is named for him. And Stover... there were two Stovers. William is the one who became the more

prominent citizen and so it's probably named after him. We don't know about Elizabeth Street. It could be Elizabeth Keyes, it could be Elizabeth Stone. We don't know.

Frank B.:

Talking in very general terms, what were the effect of floods on Fort Collins over the period of time? Barbara F.:

There was a very serious flood in 1904, which flooded out the establishment. Peterson was one of the investors, to go back a minute, in the sugar beet factory, which became Great Western Sugar, and he donated land for housing for the Germans from Russia who settled there to work in the beet fields and in the factory. And the first establishment, which is called Andersonville, named after Peter Anderson, was completely flooded out. An old man named Robert Strauss, who had been one of the very early settlers here, died that night. His land was along the Poudre. Unfortunately, his cabin was vandalized in the 1930s and we don't have it any more. But he was an old man by then and he came out with the rising water and tried to go to his neighbor's for help, clung to a fence all night and died a few days later. He was the only casualty that we know of.

Barbara F.:

So in the early days, that was one of the worst floods. There have been some others. And later, when you get to that part of the history, there are more. But it's the river overflowing.

Frank B.:

Are there stories in particular that have to do with the Agricultural College or CSU... and we don't have to deal with just the first 50, but just certain ones? In your extensive research that you have found of interest. What are some of the interesting things about this college that we're at?

Barbara F.:

Well, I think one of my favorite stories about the college has to do with when my parents were both teaching there. My mother, as I said, taught bacteriology in the vet school and my father taught English. The English Department was a very small, very close, very cohesive group and every spring used to go up to Poudre Canyon and have a picnic. And there was this camaraderie among the faculty that as the college grows, I doubt exists any more. I mean, you have six English professors who are very close friends and they go on picnics. They go on social occasions. See each other outside of the academic

environment. That is one of my fond memories of growing up as the daughter of a professor. There was a closeness among all the faculty really, but particularly the departments.

If we could go completely off subject of the first 50 years of CSU, could you tell us about your experience as a student here? How did you get here?

Barbara F.:

Where else would I go? Frank B.:

Well I guess what I'm trying to say, both parents were already professors here. What was the process back in the 1960s, is that right?

Barbara F.:

1954 is when I graduated from high school and by the way, we're having our 65th reunion this summer. I just applied and was accepted. It was not a complicated process. I went to the admissions office. I said I want to go to school here. And that was that. We were on the quarter system then. I don't know if you know much about that, but it's a nightmare for professors. Ten weeks instead of 16 weeks to teach a subject. Longer class times, but it's all compressed and it's very, very difficult.

Barbara F.:

So we were on the quarter system and I had a full curriculum, majoring as I said in English. One of my memories is when you registered for school, for classes, you had to go to the old field house and there you had to walk around and try to what they call pull cards from the classes that you wanted to take. So you had to be there really early in order to get the classes you wanted. So there are only so many cards for each class. So, students would line up outside the field house and burst in and run around and get cards. And one particular time, this was in January, it was freezing outside. We must have waited an hour to get in to get our cards. I think it's so much nicer now. You can do it all online I think. That's great, because we sure couldn't.

Frank B.:

We found film footage from 1955 of the actual field house, of the actual students-Barbara F.:

Oh, did you! Frank B.:

-registering. Yeah. So what was your experience your freshman year here? By that time it was already Colorado

State-Barbara F.:

No, it became Colorado State in '55, '56. Frank B.:

So you were still A&M? Barbara F.:

When I started, yeah. But shortly thereafter under William Morgan it became Colorado State. Yeah. Frank B.:

So what was your first year like? Barbara F.:

Well, I didn't live on campus. I lived at home. And I got married, so I didn't go to school sequentially freshman, sophomore, junior, senior. I went back to school later as a married woman raising three kids, getting my degree in the 1960s and I was a TA after that to get my master's degree. During the time when there was so much restlessness on campus because of the Vietnam War. And that was an

interesting period. A little bit alarming because there were demonstrations. There were marches. There was no violence that I'm aware of, but I do know that some people have blamed the fire on Old Main on campus unrest. I don't know that that's ever been proven. But it was a difficult time. So I didn't have a typical college education at all.

Frank B.:

What was the campus like? I mean now, we're in a building that's four stories high that's just been rebuilt or at least refurbished and what-not. What was the campus like?

Barbara F.:

It was around the oval mainly. I drove around the oval twice today just for nostalgia, to look at what the buildings are now. Same buildings, different purpose. And we had a few buildings off the campus. My mother's building, where she taught bacteriology, was right across from the administration building and there was, I think, the student center was built in the early to mid-'60s. That was one of the first

expansions beyond the oval. It was very small. That's why I told you the campus intimidates me because it's so huge now.

Frank B.:

What was your... You say you were married of course so it would be different than a single life, but we found that there's a lot of activities that were going on during that time. There were lectures here. Barbara F.:

Oh, yes. Frank B.:

There were speakers, music. Can you tell me about... did you attend any of the things that were extracurriculars, so to speak?

Barbara F.:

To go back to my earlier years, one of my fondest memories is every year the college choir and orchestra put on a Christmas concert for the faculty and we used to go to the Christmas concert and listen to it, to the glorious music. There were lectures, yes. There were films in the old theater in the student center. You probably heard about that.

Do you remember any off the top of your head or ones that you attended? Barbara F.:

The only one I remember I can't remember the name of. It was the story about a young boy of maybe 20 who fell in love with a woman of 80.

Frank B.:

Oh, yeah. Harold and Maude. Barbara F.:

Yes. That was it. Yeah. That was one of the movies I saw there. Frank B.:

That was... I was amazed at that movie. Music by Cat Stevens, by the way. I don't know if you remember that or not.

Barbara F.:

I didn't know that. Frank B.:

Yeah. He was unknown pretty much when that came out. In terms of you're being a student here with two faculty members here, any effect... You hear stories about students whose father was the principal at a high school or something like that. Was there any difference being the daughter of two professors when you came here for college? Or it didn't matter.

Barbara F.:

I had nothing to do with my mother's side of academia. I was in a class with my father and he very carefully called me by my married name, as professors did in those days. They called students by their last names. Miss or Mrs. or Mr. And treated me like anybody else. It didn't really trouble me. No. Frank B.:

What kind of grade did you get? Barbara F.:

Of course I got As. I had to work very hard for them, though. Very hard. Frank B.:

Let's go back to this. There was a formality in college at that time that I don't think exists now. Can you talk about that in terms of dress code or behavior? Anything that has to do with that?

Barbara F.:

Well, for one thing, female teachers couldn't wear pants. They had to wear dresses. When you went to class, you didn't wear jeans and T-shirts. You wore more formal clothing. Dressed more like you are now and I am. I wouldn't have gone to school in slacks. I never would have done that. Yes, it was a much more

formal atmosphere and I would say, too, at the time I went to school the Greeks were very strong on the campus and very influential. I don't think that's the case any more. I think they have kind of faded out of the college culture, although there are still some sororities and fraternities. I don't think they were nearly as prominent. In those days, pretty much the Greeks were the ones who were the college student council president and all that kind of thing. They had considerable power.

Frank B.:

How did you address your professors? Barbara F.:

By their formal names. Mr., Mrs., Miss. I never would have called a professor by his first name. And I never would have called my father daddy in class, either. Never. I always still think of him in those terms. Frank B.:

They had meal plans and all kinds of other types of plans here on campus. Did you have... you just went home to eat,

or-Barbara F.:

Didn't have anything like that. I brought my lunch. When the student center was built, the old student center--which was Johnson Hall, which was on the oval--didn't have a cafeteria. The new student center did, and you could go there and eat. But, it cost money. You didn't get a special discount for being a student.

Frank B.:

1960s was also the beer-in. Were you around? Oh, we got a smile. Barbara F.:

(Laughs). I remember. Frank B.:

Can you talk about that? Barbara F.:

I remember it, but I wasn't involved in it at all. What I remember from that time was a student sit-in in the admin building and the students were protesting restrictions in the dormitories that men couldn't go into the women's dormitory and there were curfews and all this kind of thing and they were protesting that. I don't remember a lot about the beer-in.

Frank B.:

We have film of that, too. Barbara F.:

You know, Fort Collins was dry from 1896 to 1969. And it was the veterans who brought about the end of Prohibition, I believe.

Frank B.:

Can you talk about... This goes back beyond the first 50 years, but the effect of World War I? You were talking a little bit about that, like when the veterans came back. Can you talk about the effect it had on Fort Collins, as well as to the college?

Barbara F.:

Well, it wasn't the same as when the veterans came back after World War II, because after World War II, they had the GI Bill. And they came here to go to school. Mainly it would have been the veterans who came back were those who came from here and survived what they called at that time the Great War. And it was a horrible war. I wrote a column once about a man who was in the trenches during World War I and was gassed and was never the same afterward. He died in his early 40s from lung disease. And the uniforms they gave them were so totally unsuitable, so completely useless. And the trenches were full of anything imaginable you wouldn't want to wallow around in, including bugs and rodents and other things. It was horrible. I would imagine... Now they call it PTSD, but I would imagine that they must have come back so traumatized that it would have been very difficult for them to resume normal lives.

Frank B.:

The end of World War II, the GI Bill, how much effect did it have... we know the effect it had on the college. Bill Morgan had a huge problem on his hands how to house these people.

Barbara F.: Oh, yeah. Frank B.:

So what was the effect on Fort Collins? What was the effect on CSU? Barbara F.:

Well, I== think it completely changed the culture of Fort Collins. My parents used to call Fort Collins the town of broad streets and narrow minds. It was very conservative. When the veterans came back, they were worldly. They had been all over and they just completely opened up the culture of Fort Collins, not only ending Prohibition, but influencing the types of entertainment we had here. The types of movies. When I was growing up, maybe this was mid-'50s, and maybe it was after I was out of high school, I can't remember exactly. A movie came to town called The Moon is Blue. It used the word virgin. People picketed the theater to keep that movie from being shown. After the veterans began to infiltrate and change things, that kind of thing just didn't happen any more. The conservative faction in the community no longer had sway.

Frank B.:

Why do you love Fort Collins? Barbara F.:

It's my hometown! It's a lovely place to live. It is... the foothills are my horizon. I love the mountains. It's changed a lot and there are things about the change that I don't like, but it's a wonderful place to live. Frank B.:

This is a more facetious question. Feel free to laugh. Why should we tolerate the train? Barbara F.:

Well, if you look at it historically, as I said, it saved the town. And I don't think it's a lot of choice because it has to be cooperation... Well the federal government would have to pay and the city would have to pay and the railroad would have to pay and they'd all have to agree with each other and we don't do a lot of agreeing right now. So I think we have to tolerate it because there isn't much alternative.

Frank B.:

My only disappointment, and once again I'm a newcomer here, is that I still believe we should have never disbanded the passenger part of it.

Barbara F.:

Oh, I believe that, too! Yeah. I remember when I went to college, when I went to Chicago, rather, to be in a friend's wedding. That would be in 1956. I had to go to Greeley to get a passenger train. Now you have to go to Denver. Yeah, I think it was a mistake.

Frank B.:

Anybody in the room have a question you want to ask? Brian or Blake or Robbie? Speaker 1:

There are so many great stories. Speaker 2:

I was just looking more if you could elaborate more on... let me look here real quick. Elizabeth Bell. Frank B.:

Elizabeth Bell? Barbara F.:

That name is not familiar to me. Frank B.:

Okay. Speaker 3:

If there's one thing in the history of CSU or the history of Fort collins that's really amazing to you or unique, what is that?

Barbara F.:

It's amazing to me that the town survived at all because there was so much against it. The drought, the grasshoppers... Oh, and I forgot to tell you that the first bank that was established here failed because the banker went off to Denver saying he was going to get more money and never came back. So people lost money. So they had a failing bank, we had grasshoppers, we had drought. How in the world did

those people hang on and survive? I think they're amazing. I think they're admirable and I think that's my favorite part about the history.

Speaker 1:

Nice. You give a lot of talks to different people. Barbara F.:

I do. Speaker 1:

You said you're more a storyteller. Barbara F.:

I am. I think you could tell that. Speaker 1:

If you could just give us one of those stories that's interesting that might apply to our film? Can you think of one?

Barbara F.:

What kind of story are you looking for? Speaker 2:

Just maybe that pertains to CSU. Speaker 1:

Something with CSU or early Fort Collins. Barbara F.:

Okay. Let me think a minute. I think Fort Collins, when I was growing up here, was a very insular community. It was kind of isolated in so many ways from the rest of the world. You asked me about World War I and I told you I didn't think it had a huge effect here. We were affected by the flu epidemic. And that's how we came to have our first public hospital. But Fort Collins was like a little island of safety. When I was growing up here, I never felt afraid walking around, riding my bicycle. I never was anxious that something bad might happen to me. This was a safe, comfortable, happy place. And I think that the campus was in its own way, similar to that. That it was a little bubble in a wider world.

Barbara F.:

Well, a story I will tell you is about the Town and Gown Theater, which was started by another one of my remarkable women, Ruth Jocelyn Wattles. You may have heard something about her. She was about six-feet tall. She was a redhead and she was a formidable presence to put it kindly. But RJ was a dear soul, and after she retired--she taught English at the college for many years. After she retired, she felt that thee needed to be more connection between the university and the town so she started this community summer theater called The Town and Gown Theater. And her goal was to bring townspeople into the

community. Well we had the plays at Old Main. Old Main, that auditorium, was absolutely awful. The seats were completely uncomfortable. They were hard wood. The acoustics were impossible. The stage was uneven. And when a train went by, everything stopped. The actors had to freeze in place. The same thing happened when we had class. If the professor was talking and the train went by, we just froze until the train had gone because it was so close to the building and so loud.

Barbara F.:

But the Town and Gown Theater did succeed in bringing townspeople into the community. It was really the first community theater here. I'm looking to, if I'm around long enough, be a part of the 50th anniversary of Open Stage. But it didn't really start until some years later. So, Town and Gown I think lasted about six years. But it was a remarkable thing that she did.

Frank B.:

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Barbara F.:

I hope I have given you what you-Speaker 2:

What was really interesting is how you talked about the women and how CSU encouraged women and actually started to bring in programs for women.

Barbara F.:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)-Speaker 2:

Because I think the early settlers of this area, some of the women were pretty strong, right? Barbara F.:

They had to be. Frontier women had to be. That's why I celebrate them in history because women have been lost to history pretty much. In the paper you'll find Mrs. John Jones, not Jane Jones. Mrs. John Jones. So what do we know about these women? But the women were the ones that made settlement possible. They were strong, they were tough, they were resilient, they were brave. They were

remarkable. Speaker 2:

Awesome. More good stuff. [crosstalk 01:24:39] Speaker 3:

So much good stuff. Speaker 1:

Barbara F.: Sure. Frank B.:

All right. So we have a little bit of paperwork to fill out. Barbara F.:

Okay. Frank B.:

We've got to get you unhooked first. Barbara F.:

Yes. Speaker 1:

And we need you to sign our books, too. Frank B.:

Yeah. Barbara F.: Oh, sure.