Colorado State University Libraries Archives & Special Collections University Archive
Transcription of Ann Gill Interview, 2019 April 17
Item Metadata
Collection: CSU Sesquicentennial Collection (USES)
Creator: Gill, Ann, interviewee; Boring, Frank (Documentary film producer), interviewer Title: Ann Gill interview
Date: 2019 April 17
File Name: USES_004_Gill_Ann_access.mp4 Date Transcribed: April 2021
Editor: Helen Baer
Transcription Platform: Rev.com
BEGIN TRANSCRIPTION Ann Gill:
My name is Ann Gill. I was born in 1951 and on Kawai, in Hawaii. Speaker 2:
You've had several educational... You've gone through several things in education. From Western State College, you had a BA. You got a master's in communication, attachment in law school and then
University of Denver for PhD. What attracted you, or what was the decision that was made, that you are going to come to CSU?
Ann Gill:
I actually started as an undergraduate at CSU. Speaker 2:
We're going to start there. Ann Gill:
I spent my life out on a farm and ranch in northeastern Colorado, and I recall going to a couple of conferences here at CSU, and I think I attended one football game, and so it was just the place I wanted to go. I didn't apply for anything else or even think about anything else. As you can tell, I'm still here many decades later. It has been a wonderful place for me.
Speaker 2:
Give us a clear idea. What was the process of your decision to come here? Then, what was the actual process of getting here?
Ann Gill:
Do you mean, as a student or working here? Speaker 2:
A student. Ann Gill:
Just what I told you. The process was, it was where I was going to go to college, and so I applied and came. Not any great story to it actually.
Speaker 2:
Well, if I applied to come here to CSU today, it's very different than the application that you went through, so that's what I'm trying to get. We're getting a historical document here. What was it like for you to be able to get in? What was the process to get into CSU?
Ann Gill:
If you're asking me, what was some form that I filled out, that was so long ago, I couldn't tell you. I just know that I got a letter one day, that I had been accepted after whatever I sent to them. I'm sure they looked at grades and how we took some standardized tests and that thing. I don't know that there were questions that we ask students now to try to get their personality out and how they feel about things in the world, but other than that, having not worked in admissions here and being so old, that I don't remember what I did back then, I can't really give you a much better answer than that.
Speaker 2:
Okay. Then, let's talk about actually arriving here. How'd you get here, and where did you go when you got here physically?
Ann Gill:
Well, I loaded up... What was that thing called? Ford Grand Chero or something like that, put my stuff in the back of it and drove up and hauled my stuff into Durward Hall. That's how my early days at CSU began.
Speaker 2:
What was your purpose in being here? What was your major? Ann Gill:
Well, I think not being clear about either purpose or major, it was a process of exploration and taking generalized classes that worked as prerequisites for a number of majors. My second year and then half of my third year, I was a student assistant, they called them back in the day, as they call them resident assistants now in Westfall Hall, which is the other tower. Really, really liked that job. Then, life took me to Gunnison, and so I owned a restaurant for a while in Gunnison, and while I was there, I finished my undergraduate degree at Western State.
Well, what was college life like when you got here? Well, it's very different than now. What was college life like?
Ann Gill:
There were fewer students here. The liberal arts have not changed as dramatically, I suspect, as some of the others, and most of the classes that I took were liberal arts. Somehow, I ended up in honors calculus. It turned out that the math teacher I'd had at my little, tiny high school, which had 18 people in my high school graduating class, had not passed calculus, and so I wasn't exactly prepared for that particular class.
Ann Gill:
Other than that, there was a public speaking class. There was a history class. Other than the teaching technology, I don't know that it was that much different than it is today. Classes were smaller than some of the classes today. Public speaking still is a small-sized class. Certainly, fewer students. It wasn't quite the mob scene on the plaza between classes that it is today. Those are the things that stick out at this point in my memory.
Speaker 2:
Sure. Sure. What are your impressions... You're a big football fan, right? Ann Gill:
And basketball, yes. Speaker 2:
And basketball. In the early days, when you first got here as a freshman and whatnot, did you get involved in any social activities? Did you go to games? Did you have
any-Ann Gill:
I did go to games. I remember one in particular. It was one of the years I was a resident assistant in the dorms, and towards the end of the game, the CSU football team had not got the ball across, into its own, or into the end zone to score, and so while they were in a huddle at one point, one of the young fellows on my floor, who apparently had been drinking a bit at the game, hopped over onto the field, grabbed the ball and ran it into the end zone, much to the... The student body went wild. That, indeed, was the only time anyone from CSU got the ball across. There have been some better years for football than that year at CSU.
Speaker 2:
What were some of the trials and tribulations of being a resident? I know, the RA that I had in my freshman year, I was there from '72 to '76, had major challenges. What were some of the ones that you had to deal with?
Ann Gill:
I actually had a delightful group. This was one of the first coed floors, and so that was fun, and it was also an upper-class floor. There were no freshmen, a delightful, diverse group of students. For some reason, this group was all card players. I believe what they played was a game called spades, and so when you'd
come home from class, they'd all be sitting in the lobby on that particular floor that I was on and haul you into a card game.
Ann Gill:
The other interesting thing that happened that year, which I guess was a little more challenging is, one of the fellows, not on my floor, but on a different floor, the police came and arrested for drugs. I went down to the station to see if I could do anything or contact anybody for him. I think about that from time to time, what a difficult way it is to start your almost adult life to have a run-in with the law like that. Speaker 2:
Were there things going on, on campus, what were all bigger things on campus at that time that you can recall?
Ann Gill:
I think I'm not going to be able to come up with anything too interesting. I-Speaker 2:
Because you missed out on the '70s? That, they're really just are the times when there was a lot-Ann Gill:
Well, I started here on campus in 1969-Speaker 2:
Right. Ann Gill:
... fall, and so one of the things that was going on was a lot of protesting. The Vietnam War protest really happened... Well, they were the next
year-Speaker 2: Yeah. Ann Gill:
... my sophomore year. My freshman year, there were two student groups that were fairly new. One was the Black Student Alliance, and the other one was the Mexican-American Committee for Equality, and so there were a number of protests regarding that. My sophomore and the first half of my junior year while I was here, the Vietnam protest, I can remember being in Spanish class. A graduate teaching assistant taught it.
Ann Gill:
She came in dressed in shorts and said, "What are you all doing sitting in class? We're going to go out to the lagoon and protest the war," and so off we all went. Those were exciting and, in some ways,
and some of the guys sitting in the room either got a low number and were going to be headed off or got a high number and probably didn't have to go to Vietnam
and-Speaker 2:
I'm in that category. I missed out by a hair-Ann Gill: Yeah. Speaker 2: ... on just-Ann Gill: Yeah. Speaker 2:
If you were there in '69, and you know that... Part of what I'm trying to do, Ann, is, in this documentary, is to show that it's not an insulated or insular CSU, that CSU is affected by the outside. I will be
interviewing Paul and also [Mandy Weldon 00:09:58], the-Ann Gill:
Paul Chambers and-Speaker 2:
Paul Chambers, yeah. Ann Gill:
Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2:
I'm also wanting to get from the outside perspective as well. You just said, your Spanish class, that was perfect.
Ann Gill: Yeah. Speaker 2:
Did you feel a sense of tension at all on campus as these protests were going on? It was a hell of a [crosstalk
00:10:19]-Ann Gill:
Certainly, there were diverse opinions about them. Do I recall people ranting and raving? No. I recall those protests as being relatively peaceful. They took over the administration building one afternoon, but when it was time to close the administration building, they left and went over to the president's
front lawn and continued their protest. In fact, one of my favorite recent pictures is one of the women who was at that protest, came back, saw the president's house there at the end of Laurel Street where she had protest, and now the sign in front of it says "diversity house." There's a picture of her leaning on the sign. I love that picture.
Speaker 2:
Were you on campus when the BYU game in 1970? Ann Gill:
I was there. I was not at the game. I certainly heard about it and have seen the photographs. There were a number of protests around the athletic conference because of the BYU policy of someone who is African-American could not rise beyond a particular place in the Mormon ranks.
Speaker 2:
Were you involved in any of those? Or, the protests or-Ann Gill:
I wasn't involved in any of those. That doesn't mean that I didn't disagree with them, but I just wasn't a part of the group that was central to what was going on.
Speaker 2:
What about the Burning of the Old Main? Ann Gill:
That happened the spring of my freshman year. I actually was not in town but made an impression. Unlike a number of people that I've talked to, I did never have a class in Old Main, but that ripple effects, affects through the campus that night that that burned.
Speaker 2:
What was your reaction? Ann Gill:
I'm sure it was somewhat similar to many people, and that is, "Who did it? What's this about?" There was some thought that it might be related to the protests about the war. Others had different opinions. I found it rather amusing, that the April before, the April Fools' edition of the Collegian had a front-page story that said, that Old Main had been destroyed by an atomic bomb.
Ann Gill:
There were a few things about the building that, apparently, some of the students were not sorry, that they would no longer have classes in there. Then, the other side of that was, that a number of people, including some art and design students, had their portfolios, that they needed to go out and find jobs, and they were destroyed in that fire.
Did you find overall your student experience to be a... How would you describe your student experience at CSU?
Ann Gill:
I liked it. I was one of those students who wasn't quite sure where she was going, and so I never dove into it the way, later on, I dove into particular topics and particular things.
Speaker 2:
You've mentioned earlier, and, actually, would it lead you to say now, that you were unsure about what you wanted to do? Was there a point in your college career when you started to realize you wanted to do?
Ann Gill:
I certainly found a major. I adored my public speaking professor here and really liked that class. Then, when I ended up in Gunnison and decided to go ahead and finish school, why that... I think that class and maybe one other became the reason that I got that major, and communication was something that I very much enjoyed.
Speaker 2:
You leave to get a second degree, right? Ann Gill:
No. That was the, my first degree. I didn't get an undergraduate degree from CSU. Speaker 2:
Okay. Ann Gill:
I left here before I was done, and while in Gunnison, I went ahead and finished my undergraduate-Speaker 2:
May I ask you why you didn't finish here? Ann Gill:
I suppose you can ask. Speaker 2:
Yeah. Ann Gill:
It was a guy, and I followed him to Gunnison. I think that ought to just cover that. Speaker 2:
Ann Gill:
I had really liked it. The restaurant was fun for a while. Then, figured out, I think I'd made $0.95 an hour working unbelievable number of hours and decided, it was time to do something else with my life, and so I applied to come back to grad school, thinking that I always wanted to be a professor. Again, I didn't apply anywhere other than CSU.
Speaker 2:
You applied. You got in. What changes had happened on campus since you had left? Was there anything that you noticed that was different?
Ann Gill:
I wish I could give you a good answer on that, but nothing jumps out immediately about changes from the early 70's to the mid-70's when I came back.
Speaker 2:
Because Hansen, Jim Hansen talks in his book about how there is this sense of, in the 60's in the 70's, late 60's, 70's, there's this explosion of protests and whatnot, and just things just mellowed out. Speaker 3:
Let me stop you for a second. Speaker 2:
Okay. Speaker 3:
We're going to either have you stay leaning back or stay forward-Ann Gill:
And quit moving. I apologize. Speaker 3:
[crosstalk 00:16:21] get out of frame, because I'll-Ann Gill:
I apologize. Speaker 3:
No need to apologize. It's good. Ann Gill:
Okay. Speaker 2:
Yeah. Ann Gill: Will do. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Either one is fine. Ann Gill:
You can throw something at me if I do it again, okay? Speaker 3:
Whatever's more comfortable for you. I mean-Speaker 2:
Yeah. How difficult was it coming back? From working, well, to-Ann Gill:
It wasn't difficult. It was great being back in Fort Collins, great being back at CSU. I really enjoyed grad school. One of the things, part of the grad's program was being a graduate teaching assistant, and so I taught two sections of public speaking every term. Getting to teach and getting to teach that class was wonderful.
Speaker 2:
Well, coming from somebody who was not a graduate student in teaching but teaching, what were your challenges with students in public speaking?
Ann Gill:
Well, they do these surveys, and I remember a number of them, that asked people what they were most afraid of. Death and rodents and public speaking usually led the list. One of the challenges was to turn a bunch of "I really hate having to be here" people into people who realized why it was important to become a good public speaker and also to start having some fun as a public speaker, which goes hand-in-hand with improving.
Speaker 2:
When you first bring that up in class, they think you're completely out of your mind, "Have fun with this?" and then, by the end of the semester, left a great feeling [inaudible 00:17:59].
Ann Gill: Yep.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. Describe your transition then from graduate student into actually becoming a professor. Ann Gill:
Well, I took a little bit of an unintended, unplanned journey. I guess I will say, towards the end of my time in the masters' program, I was thinking about what was next. One of the things that was high on the list was going on and getting a PhD. I had to take the graduate record exam to do that, and so while I was doing that, I can remember signing up in the basement of C-wing, Clark for a number of tests to keep my options open.
Ann Gill:
The graduate record exam came back first. I applied to the school I wanted to go to and got in and thought it was all done, so I went back to the basement of C-wing, Clark to get my money back if I could for the other exams. I could get them all back, except for the law school admission test. I thought, "Okay, fine. I'll just take it and see what happens."
Ann Gill:
The night before the test, one of my buddies in the graduate program was leaving town, and we had a bit of a party, and I didn't ever go to bed. I walk into the law school admission test loose as a goose, while everybody else there is white-knuckled, because their entire lives depend on this test. When I got the test scores back, I went to talk to one of the faculty members in political science to see what it meant, and he went on and on about what great test scores it was. I figured, it was probably because I was so calm about the whole thing, and so for no better reason than that, I applied and went to law school and did three years of that.
Speaker 2:
I had a roommate in college that went to law school, never intending to be a lawyer, just wanted to prove that he could do it. Why did you go to law school?
Ann Gill:
Just because this professor told me, that those were such great scores, and he thought I'd be great at it, and that's why I did it.
Speaker 2:
Why didn't you become a lawyer? Ann Gill:
Well, I did for a year. I spent a year as a public defender in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I had worked in law firms while I was going to law school, and I knew there were a number of law I did not want to do. I really was interested in criminal law, and defense fit my personality. The public defender in Colorado said they'd hire me, but they wanted me to go back out to northeastern Colorado, and I said, I wasn't quite ready to go home, and so that's... I ended up in Wisconsin.
I was in the postconviction division, which you don't win many cases, postconviction. Second, it involved me spending a whole lot of time in the prisons in Wisconsin. Wisconsin was not... Wisconsin and I were not a big fit, plus the governor made the public defender office his issue that year and vetoed our funding bill, and so I was writing back to my major professor at CSU, telling him that my life was blowing up a bit, and he offered me a job to come back and teach as a non-tenure-track faculty member. I accepted that and packed my stuff up and decided, I was never living anywhere, where the ZIP Code started in a number lower than eight again.
Speaker 2:
You now arrived as a non-tenure professor. What year was that? That's-Ann Gill: That was 1980. Speaker 2: ... '86? Ann Gill: 1980. Speaker 2:
Okay. What were you teaching? Ann Gill:
Mostly, public speaking. Then, what was that class called? Oral reading of all things. Then, they realized that my law degree might be useful for something, and I started a class called freedom of speech, which was a First Amendment class. Loved teaching that class.
Speaker 2:
What were the students like at that time? Ann Gill:
They were... I've always loved my classes and my students, and so I'm not sure I can compare them well to anything else. They were great. When you look back on that, I've heard a lot of people say, that that was a period of some fairly serious misbehavior on campus. We didn't have the same support offices that we have now to help students lead healthier and better adjusted lives, and so things could get out of hand, but I didn't see that in my classroom. They were great, and it was all fine.
Ann Gill: 22:58. New Speaker:
I suppose, the one example that sticks out in everybody's mind and was a very bad black eye for the university was the last couple of years of College Days. College Days started in 1910. A bunch of, well, I
think, 200 and some people climb on a train and rode it, I guess the train went there those days, up to Bellevue and had a picnic. Then, later on, there was a rodeo and a parade for College Days. Then, later on, there was a big outdoor concert.
Ann Gill:
Well, then in '86, people misbehaved very badly. In '87, there were riots, and that was the end of College Days. Students misbehaved in some public ways that the university then had to take action. Not all students, and not all the misbehavers were students, but then the last, it was on our campus and in our town,
so-Speaker 2:
The person who's listening over there, Brian, was I think 16 years old and was actually there. There's others?
Speaker 3: Him as well. Speaker 2:
He was there as well. I get the impression that your focus on your teaching also meant that you weren't necessarily involved in things going on around you. Is that an accurate statement?
Ann Gill:
That is a very accurate statement. It wasn't until I took administrative positions that, suddenly, I got involved in the politics and the happenings and the decisions and the missteps of the larger campus leadership structure.
Speaker 2:
If we're looking at the period of the '80s into the '90s, the '80s, try to give us a better idea of what it took for you to go from non-tenure-track into the next stage of your career.
Ann Gill:
The department told me, that they would really like to keep me in, but they couldn't put me on tenure-track until I got a PhD. For three, rather crazy years of my life, I taught full-time at CSU. They had also made me the debate coach, so I coached debate and spent weekends traveling around the... driving the team around the western United States the tournaments. Then, Tuesdays and Thursdays, I drove to Denver to take PhD classes at DU, and because I couldn't afford the tuition at DU, I taught for them as well. I don't remember much else about those three years, but then, as soon as I got the PhD, they made me tenure-track.
Speaker 2:
How was your life different once you got tenure? Ann Gill:
The range of classes that I got to teach were more. Suddenly, there was the "publish or perish" issue for tenure-track faculty members, and so I started writing and submitting articles. The experience of
teaching in the department at the upper division level meant, almost everybody is the classes was a speech communication major, whereas, with public speaking, you got students from all across campus. Ann Gill:
I still did a public speaking class now and then, but I missed that... It was refreshing to have, hear perspectives from people who did such different things, whereas, people were a lot more focused and a lot more, not in lifestyles, but in attitudes toward communication. We're a lot more alike in those upper division classes. Then, I started teaching and directing graduate students, so those were the differences. Speaker 2:
All of us that teach had exceptional students, and then we have problem students. We are not allowed to differentiate between the two, and maybe some of them take a little more time than others. What were some of the problems that you ran into at the graduate... [inaudible 00:27:11] teaching with graduate students as opposed to the freshmen that you may have taught earlier on?
Ann Gill:
Well, graduate students were doing different things. They needed to find a thesis topic. They needed to write a thesis. They themselves were graduate teaching assistants, and so they were in the classroom for the first time, and for some of them, that was a step that was harder than for others, and so you'd deal with that. They were also though still students. I can remember one graduate student who was
amazingly neurotic about teaching, and he worried all the time about what questions he might get asked.
Ann Gill:
These are things that freshmen in public speaking class were never going to ask you. "What do you think that Socrates meant when he taught..." Anyhow, he worried about those things, and so some of the other students, one of them just grabbed him before he walked into class, like he had an emergency and needed something, and the other ones walked in and gave some questions to his students of this sort that he had always feared. I got to deal with the aftermath of that,
but-Speaker 2:
Was it a conscious decision, or was it offered to you to go to the next stage in your career at CSU? Ann Gill:
You mean, into administration? I describe it as not having ducked fast enough. I remember when the longtime department chair, who was the very guy who had taught my first public speaking class that I had liked so much, decided to step down as chair. Suddenly, this [Cardra 00:28:58] from the department showed up at my door and announced, that I needed to take over next, so I did.
Speaker 2:
I just did an interview with Pat Burns, and at stages where he got asked by Tony to do something, and she said, "Yes, sir."
Ann Gill:
Speaker 2:
Well, what did you know of... I mean, you, obviously, you knew enough about your chair, but you didn't do it. I mean, why did you do it? Why did you choose to take it on?
Ann Gill:
Seriously, because they all talked me into it. I mean, no better reason than that. Speaker 2:
I'm not trying to trick you with it. Did you feel qualified? Ann Gill:
Well, I think I did an okay job. That's another thing, besides getting to teach freedom of speech, that the law degree actually did for me is, it helped me understand issues and potential problems with a legalistic overtone, that every year and every decade became more significant.
Speaker 2:
What does the chair of the communications department do? Ann Gill:
They hire faculty. They evaluate faculty. They schedule course times. They, well, every administrative position I've had, they are the place, everybody comes and dumps their problems on your desk, they walk away smiling, and you add things to your to-do list.
Speaker 2:
I was trying to get an easy perspective here. When I started at Grand Valley, the chair of the
communications department had been there for almost 20 years and was really well respected, and so my introduction into this felt so smooth. He went out of his way to accommodate me. He got me an office. He did a lot of things, because
I-Speaker 2:
I found out later, because he really saw the value that I was going to bring. I didn't necessarily know I had the value that he saw in me, but when he stepped down, there was this huge shifting within the entire communications department. What was the transition like, from the professor, the chair of the
department who had been there for many, many years that you respected a great deal, what was the transition like for you to go now you're the chair?
Ann Gill:
It was quite easy. I mean, he was one of the people that came to talk me into doing it. He was very supportive. It was a great group of faculty. They were all friends. There were lots of social events, and so they were accepting of me. They were supportive. I didn't have any problems with them.
Speaker 2:
Ann Gill:
Yeah. That could happen in play, yeah, but I did not experience that. Speaker 2:
What were your goals when you sat down and said, "Okay. I'm in charge here. I'm going to do these things?" What are the things that you, what were the goals and challenges that you took on when you first started?
Ann Gill:
Well, I think, at the very first, it's, "Don't do anything stupid. Don't mess this up and see if you can rise to continue what [Dr. Bradley 00:32:28] had done for so many years." Then, once you feel comfortable in the position, you start thinking, "Okay. What do we need? Where are some places that we can
modernize and change when somebody retires? What's the positions? Should we just replace the same old thing, or should we start looking to the future?" and so that's a... That happened over the course of the time I was chair, is to go from maintenance to move forward.
Speaker 2:
What were the challenges that you had to deal with? Was it funding was the problem? Or, was it technology, the change in technology? What are some of the things you [inaudible 00:33:05]? Ann Gill:
Well, changing technology certainly happened. The first computer in the department got put on my desk when I walked in the first day as chair. Over the next year, everybody ends up with computers, and we start adjusting to all of that kind of thing. I don't remember any enormous problems from that. Some of the older guys would mutter and carry on, but it didn't get in the way in dramatic ways. There was always not enough funding. That's a function of being in the liberal arts I swear, and so you just had figured out ways to do your best with what you had.
Speaker 2:
Who was the president when you were, when you became the chair? [inaudible 00:33:52]-Ann Gill:
The 19-... Let's see. It was the end of the... Phil Austin-Speaker 2:
Yeah. Ann Gill:
... was there, and I think he was there when I started, but if not, he came shortly thereafter. Speaker 2:
All right. Then, you're now the chair of the communications department. Was there an expansion in the program at that time?
Ann Gill:
It was not dramatic. The department expanded dramatically toward the end of when I was chair, and that continued, but during the early days, it wasn't enough that it caused any particular difficulties. Speaker 2:
Really? Because I didn't get my notes exactly well. Were you here when [Warhol 00:34:47] came? [crosstalk
00:34:49]-Ann Gill:
What year did Andy-Speaker 2:
It was '81. Ann Gill:
I think it was 1970, and so I was a student and not paying a whole lot of attention. Speaker 2:
Well, he got here in '81. Ann Gill:
It was '81? Okay. Speaker 2: Yeah. Ann Gill:
Then, that was my, either spring of my first year or fall of my second year, and I honestly didn't even know he was on campus.
Speaker 2:
You'd had an autograph? You'd had-Ann Gill:
Yep. Speaker 2:
... him in your house? Ann Gill:
Yes. Yes. Speaker 2:
Okay. I digress there. Did you enjoy the experience of being the chair? Ann Gill:
It was better than I had anticipated. I'm a problem solver, and so that worked out pretty well. I had great people to work with. The staff were good. I like helping people, and so when people would walk in with problems, I like that part of it. I think the best way I can describe it is to settle in and do it.
Speaker 2:
Okay. All right. When did Tony Frank show on the scene? He was already a professor, right? Ann Gill:
I don't have the dates in my head, but yeah. He came and was in the anatomy and, I forget what it was called back then, department.
Speaker 2:
All right. You didn't really know of him or-Ann Gill:
Not until he became vice president for research. Speaker 2:
Okay. We'll get to that-Ann Gill:
Yep. Yep. Speaker 2:
... later. Okay. Then, what was the transition then from chair into your next stage? Ann Gill:
Well, there had been... The dean was asked to go to the provost office. One of the associate deans was asked to be interim dean, and they asked me to come over as interim associate dean, and so once again, didn't duck fast enough. I went over in the role as an undergraduate associate dean.
Speaker 2:
What was that responsibility? Ann Gill:
You were in charge in a supervisory way of the undergraduate majors and all the, at that time, 12 arts, humanities and social science departments. I was in charge also of the undergraduate college-wide scholarship program.
Speaker 2:
Ann Gill:
Again, anytime there was someone with a complaint, they came to you. It was learning a lot of things that I didn't know much about, how the curriculum and how the faculties worked in the other departments. There weren't any huge problems that arose, and so it was a fairly smooth transition. Speaker 2:
Then, there's a transition into the [Al Yates 00:37:47] year? Was that in the same period of time? Ann Gill:
Again, I forget the years. Speaker 2:
Okay. Ann Gill:
Yes, Al Yates came. Speaker 2:
What was that like on campus? He was our first African-American president. He just come off of... I'm not going into details about the background of what happened before that, but he came in. Was there a noticeable change on campus in your world?
Ann Gill:
I remember, the people that I hung out with were excited and proud, that we had an African-American president. I suppose you could find some people that weren't, but I didn't know them and didn't run into them. I thought it was great, and my interactions with him were very positive, and I thought it was a good move for the university.
Speaker 2:
Where did you go if you had problems? Ann Gill:
The provost. Speaker 2: Okay. Ann Gill:
Well, that's not true. That's when I was a dean. When I was associate dean, I would go to the dean. Speaker 2:
Okay. Then, what was... How did... I think I'm asking the same question over and over again. I get the same answer.
Ann Gill: That's all right. Speaker 2:
What was the transition from associate dean to dean? That's a big step, Ann. Ann Gill:
Well, but here's what happened. Again, didn't duck. We had a search for a dean. I got asked to apply for it. I said, "No. I'm fine being associate dean." The person who they hired only stayed two years, and so then I get a call from then provost, Tony Frank, saying, "Would you possibly be interim dean?" Then, I was dean for the rest of my career until I retired.
Speaker 2: All right. Ann Gill:
I wish I had a more exciting story, but that's it. Speaker 2:
Well, I'm asking a lot of people about Tony simply because this is a historical documentary, and he's about to move on to another state in
his-Ann Gill: Sure. Speaker 2:
... career. How did Tony convince you? Ann Gill:
I think Tony Frank is one of the most, at once, humble but smart and committed and ethical and kind human beings on the planet, and I would have said yes to just about anything that he asked me to do. Another provost might not have been as successful but... and to work with him. I knew that that would be a great experience and it was.
Speaker 2:
You had some dealings with them as an associate dean. Ann Gill:
Uh-huh (affirmative) and watched him. Speaker 2:
Okay. Ann Gill:
Yeah. Speaker 2:
Then, so now, he's asked you to become the dean and what did that mean? Will you move to a new office? Do you have a staff? Give me an idea of
what-Ann Gill:
Well, it was all in the same office, so yes, I moved from my smaller office to a marginally larger office. I now was in charge of the dean's office staff in ways that before I just worked with them. Blanche Hughes, Vice President for Student Affairs used to teach a graduate class and their student affairs in higher education program. Every time she taught it, she asked me to come and speak to them.
Ann Gill:
The first question always was what's it like to be a dean and I always started my answer the same way. I said, "Do you know in the parade, after the horses comes a person who in one hand has a shovel and in another hand has a bucket? That's what it's like to be dean." In more specific things, you're both responsible for and have very little control over now 13 departments in the arts, humanities and social sciences.
Ann Gill:
You're in charge of hiring and evaluating all the department chairs. You're in charge of hiring and evaluating all the people that worked in the dean's office. You are responsible for the college budget which was never big enough. You are responsible for everything else in the college and seem to be the place that everyone who was unhappy about just about anything came and I had an open door policy. Ann Gill:
I did that to myself and so I got a very long to-do list, longer than I'd ever had before. Well, I sat in that chair.
Speaker 2:
Okay, and I'm not trying to dig up your, in any way, shape or form but in terms of the different... you say you had all these different departments to deal with. What were your problem once you... what were the ones you had to deal with right away?
Ann Gill:
Some departments had faculty who found it difficult to get along with one another and whenever one faculty member got something, be it a reward, be it anything special, that caused difficulty with others. Other departments weren't like that at all and so those departments were a challenge. Another one and I don't mind naming this one but the College of Liberal Arts tried to do something really good which was get more ethnically diverse people on the faculty.
Ann Gill:
They did that by adding people into various departments. As it happened, almost every one of those faculty members, what their real interest was in studying ethnic studies, be it from a political science perspective or sociology perspective, et cetera. What we were able to do and I spent a lot of time with
them is it's time to pull you out of those departments and have you work with people that are doing the same thing, that can support you doing that.
Ann Gill:
We were able to create a Department of Ethnic Studies. That took quite a bit of time. Part of it was just a space issue. I needed to co-locate them. I guess it's interesting that they are tearing down Aylesworth as I talk about this but we found some space in Aylesworth that they were being able to be in.
Ann Gill:
Then later, when they built the Behavioral Sciences Building, I talked the university into moving one of the liberal arts departments there and I was able to bring ethic studies from their exile in Aylesworth over to Eddy and be part of that.
Speaker 2:
Just so I understand it, the Ethnic Studies program that was actually consolidating professors who taught in other areas, they still taught political science and they still taught whatever?
Ann Gill:
Mostly, I didn't require that these people come together but they wanted to because ethnic studies was what their background was, albeit focused in one of the disciplines of the liberal arts. In fact, one of the faculty members was even in health and human sciences. They weren't even a faculty member in liberal arts that ended up in ethnic studies.
Speaker 2:
That would be one of the things that I would say you feel that you accomplished. What are some of the other ones that you did? In the early days of challenges is what I'm looking now.
Ann Gill:
What else did I accomplish? We were able to find some more funding because a number of the
departments were growing dramatically. The communication department being one of those. We also, I griped enough about the state of the buildings, the Clark Building and the Eddy building which where were most of the liberal arts departments were, were in less than wonderful shape.
Ann Gill:
In fact, I have to tell you a little story. The Clark Building, you can still see it. For some reason, when they built it, someone thought it was a good idea to create this wall of concrete circles. I've been given reasons why that made sense but what it turned out to be is a home for pigeons. My most focused memory of how much problem that was, was when a woman in journalism came rushing down, her first day back after Sabbatical, screaming that there were these little tiny black things all over the floor, the surfaces of her office.
Ann Gill:
That was the first I learned that there were such things as pigeon mites and so after that, we had to not only watch out for pigeons but pigeon mites. Fortunately, after me carrying on in enough public places
about this, we got Eddy redone and so that was a wonderful thing and I don't take credit for that other than being constantly a thorn in whoever's side about the fact that we needed to do it.
Speaker 2:
We'll talk about Clark Building. Ann Gill:
Yes, yes. That's one of the things I did not get done. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2:
Okay. Yes, so I know about that story of 20 years of the provost and then becoming president. What changes or what differences do you like happened when he became president?
Ann Gill:
Well, I started being able to brag about having the best president in the entire United States. I spent some time as one of the names on his list of references and so I know how many schools wanted to hire him. I was very grateful for his wife, not wanting to leave Colorado. If you've ever been to a large gathering where he spoke, you know how magic he is with an audience.
Ann Gill:
He is humble. He is passionate. He memorizes speeches and they're not sing-songy memorization. It sounds like it's just coming from his heart. He uses wonderful words and images, you can tell I'm an old public speaking teacher, can too, but he just was incredible. He found time for people. I remember during College of Liberal Arts graduation ceremonies which were held in Moby.
Ann Gill:
The platform party had to walk up and then stand outside the back of Moby to wait to come in and then we brought all the students through there. Well, the line that came through one side and to one door was always way ahead of the line on the other side and I finally asked. I said, "What's going on with that?" They said, "Don't you know? They have to walk by Tony and everybody stops to take a selfie." Ann Gill:
They loved him, the beard and everything and I don't suspect that there are too many university professors who the students love the way they love Tony Frank. Even the stuff they didn't like, he didn't declare snow days. It had to be a bomb cyclone before we got a snow day. They just tease him about it rather than decide they didn't like him. He's amazing, just amazing.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I actually had an opportunity to comment to him in a gathering about my teaching speech for 10 years and I certainly was not attending to try to [inaudible 00:49:45].
Ann Gill: Yeah. Speaker 2:
Did he tell you what his secret is? Ann Gill:
I don't know. What? Speaker 2: Theater. Ann Gill: Yes. Speaker 2: Yes. Ann Gill:
I did ask him how he got so good at it and he did tell me that. Speaker 2:
You both shared interesting-Ann Gill: Yeah. Speaker 2: Waiting to develop. Ann Gill: Yeah. Speaker 2:
Now, you are the dean of liberal arts and I know enough about how... I'm going to embarrass the heck out of you. I talked to one people who talk about the fact that you are someone who's very accessible, someone who did a great job for the liberal arts. Let's talk about like you already told me more and talked about yourself but guess what?
Speaker 2:
You're being interviewed, Ann, so tell me, what are some of the things that you feel as the dean of liberal arts that you really are proud of, that you feel accomplished? You talked about the ethnic studies. Well, I know that but there's a lot more than that. You were there a lot of years so let's start going through some of these things and the challenges that you overcame.
Ann Gill:
Well, one of the things and this started before me. If you had seen the places, we had stuffed the performing arts on this campus back in the old days. It was awful and a couple of deans before me
suddenly started eyeing old Fort Collins High School which the university had bought when they built a new Fort Collins High School and started and I didn't have anything to do with.
Ann Gill:
First thing they did was built the performance hall where the orchestra plays and then they started remodeling other spaces and so I became dean just in time to have this wonderful grand opening and whatnot. After that, there was a lot of work that needed to be done in hiring more faculty, in improving programs, that thing.
Ann Gill:
One thing and it sounds dumb and simple but it actually made a big difference. They convinced me that the moniker of a department didn't work as well out in the world. They needed to be a school. The university took lots of persuading on that one but they got persuaded and the music theater and dance faculty were absolutely right and so they became a school and so that's one of the things that made a lot of difference.
Ann Gill:
A number of departments grew dramatically and a number of students during the time that I was dean and so what that took was trying to find some money so we could hire more faculty which usually meant snagging a little money from somewhere else and so that worked out. If you were one of the winners, I'm sure you can find somebody was a little disgruntled with me for having done that that ended up with a little bit smaller budget.
Speaker 2:
What were the technology challenges while you were dean? Okay. We're talking about time, this is just exploding.
Ann Gill:
The university helped a lot in keeping up with technology. A lot of the departments and what would be a great example? Philosophy. They just needed a good computer sitting on their desk but the journalism department needed a great deal and so you had to go out and I was not very good at finding donors back in the day but we were able to get the university to help out and find some money here and there to do that thing.
Speaker 2:
What about curriculum? Was there any changes? Liberal arts, perhaps less so than computer science maybe or vet med. What were some of the challenges you had in terms of changes in curriculum? Ann Gill:
That all, curricular changes bubbled up from departments. I had no special ability and never told anybody that you now needed to change your curriculum like this or that. I let them fight it out at the department level and one of the associate deans ran the college curriculum committee. There were some great curricular changes but I absolutely can't claim any responsibility for it. It was all departments and faculty.
Speaker 2:
Did you have time to go to basketball and football games? Ann Gill:
Yes. One of the jobs that was never listed in my job description that came about. In fact, I'll tell you how it came about. When I first came over as associate dean, there was an absolutely beloved fellow, [Bill Harvey 00:54:43] who ran the interdisciplinary liberal arts major out of the dean's office. He advised all the students in that.
Ann Gill:
He very suddenly passed away and so among the things we had to do is find somebody not only to teach the classes that he was teaching but to advise all these students. I had, when I was in communication by accident, somebody figured out that I dealt well with [Armory Boys 00:55:12], I guess. Started, advised the speech communication students who were on the football or men's basketball teams.
Ann Gill:
I said, "I know all the NCAA rules. Do you want me to take the athletes?" I thought it would be temporary. I advised student athletes til I retired.
Speaker 2:
What's the difference... This is another question, what's the difference between a student athlete and an athlete? I've seen a student athlete and a student.
Ann Gill:
The time commitment that those student athletes have is really incredible. There was also an attitude that I always had to break through. Everybody was sure that they were going to go on and play in the NFL or the NBA and so you don't just say, "That's never going to happen for you," but what you say is, "Even if you do, there is a point where you won't be doing that, and so you need to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."
Ann Gill:
There was a lot of student athletes not graduating and I decided that was going to stop under my watch and I was able to make a big difference in that and get them out of here with degrees.
Speaker 2:
If you don't want to answer, don't, but how much cooperation do you get from athletics? Ann Gill:
They were very nice to me. There was always somebody dragging somebody new into my office and plopping them in and so they were supportive. They'd say, "Whatever you need." I would chase whoever had brought the student in out. I'd shut the door and I'd say to the student, "Anything that gets said in this office does not go back to coaches. You need to know that. This is you and me and we're talking about your life and about things other than athletics." They grew to trust that way.
Once again, if you don't want to talk about this but what were some of the challenges with some-Ann Gill:
With the student athletes? Speaker 2:
Yeah. You close the door and talk and so you don't have to name, name them. What were some of those challenges?
Ann Gill:
I will tell you the story of the person who I have told probably 100 times, ranks number one on my all-time problem child list. Walked in, plopped him down. Big old six foot four football player and grabbed the chair on the other side of my desk and pulled it way back and sat in it and looked down at the ground. All I could get out of him was yes ma'am, no ma'am.
Ann Gill:
Not impolite but just a brick wall, concrete wall and I just thought to myself, pal, you have no idea how good I am at chipping concrete. It was only about two months until he started stopping in to talk when he didn't have an appointment. He left without a degree. He went into the NFL but two years later, when I told him I was retiring, he took the two classes online that he needed and he walked my last
graduation. That was one of my great heartwarming things. Speaker 2:
Will you name him? Ann Gill:
Pardon? Speaker 2:
Will you name him? Ann Gill:
Sure. He wouldn't mind. His name's [Crocket Gilmore 00:58:32] like tied in from Baltimore. Speaker 2:
Were there ones you couldn't get to? Ann Gill:
Only one and I won't name him. He was the most racist individual I had ever met in my life and I can find a spot in my heart for almost anybody and I can't say this about anybody else in the almost 40 years that I was in the classroom or in an administrative role but I couldn't reach him and finally just gave up. Speaker 2:
What is the role of a professor and I'm asking it with each program? What is the role of a professor who recognizes that a student has potential but is unable to get through that person? What do you do? Ann Gill:
I think you try a lot of things. One of them being maybe I'm not the right personality and let me introduce you to somebody or maybe I don't know if you've ever heard people talk about [Paul Feyer 01:00:07] on this campus but he was amazing with reaching first generation students and students and so that was one of my go-to people.
Ann Gill:
There were a few others. Yeah, also, just don't give up until you absolutely have to. Speaker 2:
On the other side of that, how do you deal with an exceptional student without trying... without the other students
recognizing-Ann Gill: In a classroom? Speaker 2: Yeah. Ann Gill:
If they're exceptional but keep that to themselves and allow other people to be part of their process, you don't do anything. If you get one of those unexceptional one, I need to let everybody around me
constantly know that, then you call him into a corner and have a little discussion about different ways you might want to be in interacting with the world.
Speaker 2:
Why should a student be in liberal arts program? Ann Gill:
This is one of my favorite questions. Liberal arts doesn't prepare you for a particular job. It prepares you for life and for the most amazing array of careers. I would go out and meet with alumns around the country and be amazed at the things that they were doing and often, they would say, "I had no idea that I would A, be doing it and B, loving it when I was sitting there at commencement."
Ann Gill:
Some people hadn't even heard of the jobs that they had. That's part of it, that broad base of what you can do and what it prepares you for. The part that I think is even closer to my heart is it prepares you to be a good citizen and a good human being and a knowledgeable human being in your community, in your country, in the world and goodness knows. Don't we need more of that these days?
Why should a person coming to a university take a speech test? Ann Gill:
Because how important it is to be a good speaker and to be a good communicator. Let's make it even broader than that. People make judgments about you and your ability. Sometimes, nothing more than the way that you communicate. There will be times when you are sitting in a meeting or in a group then things go in a direction that you think is wrong.
Ann Gill:
If you're scared of public speaking, you'll just sit there and fret. What you need to be able to do is have the confidence to stand up and make an argument why this is wrong and we ought to do something else or sometimes, you just want to stand up and celebrate somebody in public. Again, you need to have the confidence that you can do that and do that well. I just think it's a very important skill.
Speaker 2:
Why should a parent or a student choose CSU? Ann Gill:
Because I believe with all my heart that no matter where you're from, no matter what your background, when you get here, you feel like it's home. This is a wonderful place with wonderful people and a wonderful town and an amazing surroundings. You can be a wide variety of things and find a space for yourself here. You will also find friends that are maybe not like you but that you can still interact with and relate with.
Ann Gill:
I used to have a... the whole time I was dean, windows on two sides of my office. One looked toward the Eddy building and one looked towards the student center and the library and so when classes went out, all the campus was walking along there. I loved seeing the groups of people that were walking together. Ann Gill:
I reme mber one day, it was a guy with cowboy boots and a cowboy hat and a round skull thing in his back pocket with a tall African-American fellow and a couple of girls that were dressed way better than either of the two fellows were. They're just chitchatting and feeling comfortable. I thought, yes, this is my CSU. I love that.
Speaker 2:
What impresses you most about CSU students over the course of [inaudible 01:04:49]? Ann Gill:
By and large, they are open to things that are different than they are. They are open to learning new ideas. They are even open to changing their minds. I really, really love the fact that 25% of our entering class each year is first generation students. My defining moment about that is during liberal arts commencements, the first gen students brought bigger groups to... whole families would come. Ann Gill:
They would be loud and noisy when that person would walk across the stage and I thought, you know what's happening? Suddenly, that family's trajectory has changed because of this person getting a degree because now that getting a college degree is something that we do. The fact that we have 25% first gen students, I love.
Speaker 2:
What is notable about CSU Alumni? Ann Gill:
They do the most interesting things and I've learned more about it outside of liberal arts since I've been volunteering here at the Alumni Association but when you look at some of our alumni, we've got the first veterinarian in space. We have someone who, almost a century ago, developed this flume by which you could measure water running through an irrigation ditch.
Ann Gill:
We're still using that as a way to measure water today. We've got a woman who is an editor of one of the biggest fashion magazines in the United States. Just on and on and on, the variety and also, the care and concern for their communities, whether that means geographical communities or interest communities or whatever.
Ann Gill:
Really, really wonderful, interesting people. I like to think of them about as ordinary people who are doing extraordinary things.
Speaker 2:
What does the future look like for this CSU? Ann Gill:
As far as I can tell, it should just continue. It continues to grow. It looks to me like we hired a great new president. She's the one person I can think of that everybody in the room, the first time the new president gets up to speak isn't just going, it's not Tony. It's not Tony. I need to be calm. I think she's going to be able to get them onboard pretty quickly.
Speaker 2:
I have one more question but before I ask that question, I'm taking advantage of the fact that I'm the one sitting here asking questions. Back in 2006, a man named Ed Warner had a conversation with [Jill Parker 01:08:02] about how they were going to honor women's athletics and [Jestony 01:08:09], a friend of his who's a documentary filmmaker who just finished a film about the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League, can you tell me when you got involved in bringing a filmmaker out here to show a film? Ann Gill:
The way so many other people got involved related to that same particular thing, Ed walked into my office and announced and I... Ed and Jackie had been very generous to the marching band. I had gotten to know them through that and so it's hard to say no to Ed Warner.
Speaker 2:
Now, this is on record and I'm not asking for a... I'm not asking for kudos but you're in the audience of the show, The Flying Tigers, and Ed got up there and talked and I got up there and talked. Candidly, how did the event go?
Ann Gill:
I thought it went wonderfully. I'm sure you heard the same thing. People were educated. People found that it was done wonderfully. I think that it went off splendidly.
Speaker 2: Okay. Ann Gill: Yeah, sure. Speaker 2:
Any final comments that you can think of that we can... stories that you-Ann Gill:
I think I have two and if you'll allow me, one might be a little bit long and it's back to the whole, what does liberal arts do. I ran a quest, a quote by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. that has always stuck with me and the quote said, "Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted." I thought, what a wonderful... that's exactly what liberal arts people are is creatively maladjusted.
Ann Gill:
They look for new ways to do things and new solutions to all problems and ways in which to change policies and procedures that are either obsolete or unfair. This is a silly example but the time that this got put in my head because one or maybe more liberal arts students did a little creative adjustment of my world. That Clark Building which is the bane of my existence has these big, tall, concrete, boring flat walls.
Ann Gill:
It's painted white for a lot of years. Then the university painted it, the rest color that it is now and immediately thereupon, people started chalking messages on those walls. Sometimes, they were announcements about a meeting. Sometimes, they were advertisements for some product. It was so tacky and so tawdry that my blood would boil every time I saw a new message.
Ann Gill:
Then one day, I was walking out on the north side of the C-Wing of Clark and saw a new message so I looked at it and it was a stanza of a poem. Then I walked a little further and there was another poem and another poem and suddenly, my view on chalking did this whole reverse because here was evidence that poetry and the liberal arts were a part of the conversation.
All I can think of was may poetry always be in public places and public spaces and yes, indeed, liberal arts is perhaps part of the salvation because those folks who have studied it are just a bit creatively
maladjusted. The other thing that I would want to say is the thing that I said to every graduation class as we were dismissing graduation.
Ann Gill:
That is now a message to all my Rams, fare thee well, dear hearts. Fare thee well.
