Colorado State University-Pueblo. University Archives and Special Collections Voices of Protest Oral History Collection (EVOP)
Betty Martinez Oral History Memoir of Latino Veteranos Project Interviewed by Susie Hargrove
March 3, 2011
Colorado State University-Pueblo University Archives and Special Collections
Pueblo, Colorado BM: Smile, you’re on the candid camera! [All laughing]
SH: Hello, today is March 3, 2011. We are on the campus of the University of Colorado at
Pueblo [Colorado State University-Pueblo] at 2200 Bonforte Avenue [Boulevard], in Pueblo, Colorado. Our project today is sponsored by the CSU-Pueblo University Archives and Special Collections and Colorado Ethnic and Diversity Archives Project. Being interviewed today is Betty Martinez and she had three brothers, who served in Vietnam. My name is Susie Hargrove. Betty, thank you so much for joining us today and I do want to make sure you know today is being recorded, our interview.
BM: Yes. SH: Okay.
BM: Thank you for asking. [Smiling at the camera while Susie laughs]
SH: Can you tell us a little about each of your brothers; their names, how old they were, when
they went in to the service, and what branch they were in?
BM: Sure. I had two older brothers and they went into the Air Force. And they went in right
after high school. I had another brother−a younger brother−and he went into the Air Force also,
right after high school.
SH: So, were they volunteered or were they drafted? BM: No, they were volunteered.
SH: They were volunteered. And tell us, what do you feel their reasons were for wanting to
BM: You know, with my older brothers I’m not sure why they went in. Back then it could have
been from wanting to go get out and get the G.I. bill. I know a lot of them did that—it was for education. And others they weren’t working and so they went in to, kind of, go to work, if you will, in the military. But honestly I don’t know my brothers’ reasons for going. Now, my younger brother, I believe that the reason that he went in was because of his two older brothers. You know, they were in there and so he joined them.
SH: Kind of like he followed the example, right? BM: Uh huh. [Nodding her head in confirmation] SH: Is your family—you’re all Pueblo natives here? BM: Yes.
SH: Tell us a little about your family growing up, before they went into the service? Kind of
what life was like for you growing up here in Pueblo.
BM: Well, my parents came from New Mexico and they—prior to them meeting, my mother
worked in the beet fields in Southeastern Colorado, my father was working in the mines, and they came to Pueblo. They set up house, if you will, here. So, yeah, I was born and raised here. Most of my brothers were also and we all went to the same school. We all graduated from high school. I went on to go to college here (CSU-P). I was the first of my family to get a four year degree. I actually got two four year degrees, then I went on to DU [Denver University] law school and got my paralegal. That was quite the journey. [All laughing]
SH: Oh, I bet!
BM: So, yeah we were born and raised here. We were not really middle class, probably more
lower class. It’s funny, because you look back and you really didn’t realize that you were.
SH: Right, it was normal.
BM: Yeah, it was normal and our parents, looking back, they just went the extra mile, and with
whatever it was that we needed. So, we never felt like that, you know, it never felt different. But now were all—all of my brothers—I’m the only girl in the family—all my brothers and myself, you can considerggty us all middle class at this time.
BM: Of course. SH: Of course, yeah.
BM: My father—I came from a second marriage—with my father and my mom. My father
served in World War I and that was quite amazing to me, but he was quite a bit older when I was born. My father did fight in World War I. My uncles, they were in World War II, almost all of them. My brother, my oldest brother, served in the Korean War, and then he went into the Vietnam War.
SH: So, that’s a very strong family history. BM: Very.
SH: Can you tell us anything about what your brothers did while they were in the Air Force
serving in Vietnam? What were their job titles? Or do you know much about what they did?
BM: I do know some. I know that the oldest brother that was in the Air Force, he was a civil
engineer. He went to Vietnam and he was closer to the front lines, if you will.
SH: Uh huh. [Nodding]
BM: This was because they brought him there to look at some generators that had gone out,
strategic generators. So he told me that he had gone through the jungles, and he walked through the jungles to get to what he needed to look at. So he did that for a while. Then from there they sent him to Thailand. In Thailand apparently they took all the repairs for generators and things like that to Thailand, and so he was in charge in Thailand of all that equipment that was being sent back into Vietnam.
SH: [Nodding in understanding]
BM: So that kind of became his job. But I know in the time that he did serve in Vietnam he did
get Agent Orange [chemical exposure]. So now he is dealing with that issue. He did serve 26 years in the military and he came out as a Chief Master Sargent, which was the highest you could go as an enlisted [man].
SH: How about the other two brothers?
BM: My other brother? I don’t know what rank he was but some of the stuff he did, he would
always say he couldn’t tell us what he was doing. But after the fact, we learned that he flew radar and apparently he flew on missions or whatever, if you will, with NORAD [North American Aerospace Defense Command] planes. So he was involved somehow with NORAD, and whatever they did.
SH: And the third brother?
BM: Oh, the third brother? He became a fireman in the Air Force.
SH: And how did you feel? Do you remember when they were serving? I mean, you were a
young girl probably still in high school. How did you personally feel about your brothers serving in the Vietnam conflict?
BM: You know, my first two brothers went in earlier than the Vietnam War started. They both
had long careers, so one was 26 years and the other was 23 years, I think. So they were in there before that, and yes, I was a young girl and you know, it was just my brothers doing their service and that was kind of a cool thing. As I got older, and my [younger] brother went in when the Vietnam War was on, at that time there were so many things happening and of course my
awareness to life and living in the war was in a different place. I had a very different perspective.
SH: For, this was your [younger] brother.
BM: Mhm [Nodding]. So back then, there was just so much going on. There were civil rights
issues going on, women’s rights, and conversations about being politically correct. I know that that generation is looked at as the "me" generation, but I will tell you, as part of that generation, that we had some really interesting dialogue, if you will. Those things were really important to us, if you will. We were the generation that wanted to, I felt like, we wanted to see about changing the world.
SH: Right.
BM: From the inside out. And having said that—there were a lot of issues and probably some
that I didn’t touch on, that were going on at that time also. We had, in my opinion, a really intellectual group or generation, if you will. So a lot of issues—
SH: A lot of movers and shakers at that time.
BM: Yeah, a lot of things going on. [Nodding in agreement]
SH: So with your first two brothers you saw it was this kind of prestigious and kind of neat. But
with your last brother you had more of a sort of reluctance for him?
BM: Yes, I had sort of reluctance for him. But honestly, my reluctance didn’t come all the way
around until after he was already in, and I started having some of this dialogue and insight to what is going on. I wasn’t really excited about him going.
SH: Did your parents ever discuss with you how they felt about it, especially your younger
brother being there after the Vietnam conflict had started, and did they ever discuss their opinions or feelings about him being there?
BM: My parents were really concerned about him and that never went away. They were always
concerned and always trying to catch up on as much information as they could about what was going on.
SH: So, when trying to catch up on that information—was he able to keep in touch with you and
your family, either through letters or phone calls? And how often, how did those—?
BM: It was only through letters. We never really had any conversations with him while he was
overseas.
SH: Tell us a little about the letters that he would write home. Were they general? Did he ever
talk about his own situation in these letters or—?
BM: I haven’t thought about that till just now. But you know, as I recall, I think maybe his
letters were for the most part general in nature. Once in a while though, we would get something back where he was concerned. He would always tell my parents how much he loved them and that he couldn’t wait to get back home and have some of mom’s cooking and all of that kind of stuff. I think it was in general. I don’t think any of my brothers really wanted my parents to know much more than they—
SH: They needed to, yeah. So while your brothers were serving, and this if for all of your
brothers, did you see any personality changes? Especially like the in ones who served in Korea and Vietnam. You know, versus how they were before they went over there and what was going on in their lives. Did you see any real changes?
BM: Of course. It’s interesting because my brothers all went in at different times. So my oldest
brother went to the Korean War. Then my other two brothers went in, and the other brother was in the Vietnam War. My brother that was in the Korean War, yes, he did come back a changed person. But he was in the navy and he would tell us stories of, being in a ship. If my memory serves me, perhaps it was a submarine. They came within yards of large sea mines that they had to maneuver through. I remember him telling me those stories. What else did they go through I don’t know, but I can tell you that he did seemingly come back different. He seemed to me to be more inward you know. He kept a lot to himself.
SH: And your brother from Vietnam, when he served did he come back—
BM: My brother in Vietnam was the one that came back the worst of all. He came back with all
kinds of mental and psychological issues, if you will. There are more psychological—
SH: Did any of your brothers ever talk about discrimination in the military while they were
serving? Did they have opinions either way?
BM: No I never heard any talk about that.
SH: Well, that’s interesting. So after your brothers arrived home, what part of them stayed the
in Vietnam, but can you kind of touch on each brother and tell me how they changed and how they stayed the same?
BM: Well, the brother that served in Korea, I think he became more of an introvert. He kept a lot
to himself, but other than that, he seemed normal. He came back, he went and got a degree, and he worked at the newspaper here for 42 years, I think, before he finally retired. He was very close to my parents so I think that was the only part that I noticed is that his personality changed just a bit. My other two brothers were in the military for long periods of time and they seem fine to this day. [Smiling] The only change I would say with them is that they lived the life of a career military person. So their lives are probably, I’m going to guess, pretty structured because they came from that environment. So they're intelligent people and they're very structured.
SH: [Nods and whispers” structured”]
BM: Like I said, my younger brother left and what came back was somebody else. I always say
that he left and somebody else came back. [Choking up a bit] That has been to this day a very trying thing—Forgive me—
SH: No you're fine. You are absolutely fine.
BM: Sorry, I lost myself for a minute. [Crying and wiping her face] SH: It’s alright—
BM: What did you ask me?
SH: Well, we were just talking about the changes you saw in your brother when he came back? BM: Oh yeah. [Smiling] It wasn’t the same guy, he just wasn’t. He was different. He was
different towards me; he was different towards my parents. He was ill, he was very very ill. Matter of a fact, I was a little older at the time, and when he came back it was very frightening for my parents and that’s because he was frightening at times. So basically what the government did at that time is they said, "Here's your son, and here—" You know, I don’t know. In my mind I keep thinking that it wasn’t very much money that my brother was getting a month. Maybe $160-$200 is what rings in my head that they were giving him—and you know, he was very ill. So it’s kind of like “Here’s your son, here’s a little bit of money, take good care.”
SH: [Nods in understanding]
BM: So the only place he could go for medicine or treatment was in Denver. So my parents
started— and my parents are elderly at this time or getting there—so they had to transport him on a regular basis and at their own cost for the most part up to Denver and back, up to Denver and back. It was constant. Finally I took it upon myself, and again you have to remember that I was having a lot of dialogue with people in college and in different places. I started learning about veterans in the administration and the benefits that might be available to him. So I started the process and I started by meeting with somebody from the Veterans Administration here
[Pueblo]. I continued that process over an unknown period of years until I finally got my brother back 100%. But it took a long time and we worked on—I knew my family well. It wasn’t just me. But it was me, my family, other people within the Veterans Administration that were helpful, and the people in the hospital [that were helpful]. It was thanks to them that we were able to help him. And we were able to help him, not just in that way, but I think his health improved a little bit. Because when we originally started taking him to the hospital, they were telling us that if we hadn’t done what we had done, that it would have taken about three years or so; then he would have been in a mental institution. So we saved him from that and now he's happy; well I believe he is happy. I don’t get to see him often; he doesn’t like to be around family. He only likes to be around his family and they seem very happy, he has two children. So you know, for me and my mother—and God bless my mother [rolling her eyes]—she is the one that probably suffers the most. For us, it’s like, he lives here in Pueblo and he is happy, and that is enough for us. Because we understand what happened.
SH: Right [Nodding], when your brothers, the one that served in the Korean War and the one
that served in the Vietnam War, when they came home, how were they treated? Were there differences between the two after coming home from a Korean War and a Vietnam conflict?
BM: Well, you know, in the Korean War, I am not sure how my brother was treated by the
public, but I can tell you I remember him coming [home]. I remember as a little girl we went down to the Union Depot and one of the trains was coming in. I remember that skycap [railway porter], I can’t remember his name, but he was a jolly guy. And I remember him coming home and we were so excited and he was in his uniform and I thought, "Wow, he looks so cool and handsome in that uniform" even as a little girl. But for us we were elated, I don’t know how he was treated by the public in that respect. But—
SH: What about your brother from Vietnam?
BM: In the Vietnam War, again I had a different perspective. You know, there were people on
both sides. There were people on the side of support of the troops and what they did over there. Then there were others that were extremely mad at them for even having been there. So again, if you keep in your mind all that stuff that was going on in the late 60s, early 70s. I mean all of that stuff greatly impacted the way people thought about the war. Consequently I think probably my brother included—because you know even though my brother came back sick, there were some people that just were not sympathetic to that at all. They were like " oh, so your brother’s sick" [sarcastic tone] and, "oh, you have to do all that stuff back and forth to Denver." I don’t think I ever, other than family, remember any compassion towards that. The world was a really different place at that time.
SH: Yeah [nodding].
BM: You had people that wanted to be politically correct and other people that are doing civil
rights and women’s rights, then, boom! All of a sudden you are in the middle of a war. People started thinking, "Well, why are we in this war? How is that protecting the United States when we are in a war in Vietnam?" That was the perspective of some people and in addition to that, if that’s the thought process, then why are we spending all that money? So we had so many winds
of change going on at that time. Unfortunately, there were so many people that served in that war. Even today, so many old people still die and won’t recognize the sacrifice that they made. Because even today, those that came back who weren’t disabled or killed, they are suffering from many things. My brothers are suffering from Agent Orange and some other people are older now and they are suffering from shrapnel that’s in their body and causing all kinds of problems. Then, of course, there is the psychological impact that actually one of my brothers who served 26 years was telling me that he is now starting to suffer some psychological things that go all the way back to that. I am not a doctor and I don’t understand that post traumatic stuff but I live it through my brothers and what I have seen them go through, especially the younger one.
SH: And you mentioned that your brother that served in Korea, he came back here introverted so
he probably didn’t talk very much about his experiences.
BM: No.
SH: Your brother that served in Vietnam, was he ever able to discuss some of his experiences
while he was in Vietnam?
BM: Yeah, we learned some things. You know, piecemeal things from him. He was a fireman
and he was also in Thailand. It was when he was in Thailand that some things happened that just impacted him probably psychologically. His best friend burned to death, and one of his jobs was to go with the fire pilots that were coming in to solve the problems of fire, they would crash land and he would go and help put out the fires. Well, they would stay there a number of pilots were just burned to death in planes he would tell us. So I would just think that it was a series of things that happened over time. In hindsight, my brothers and I, my older brothers and I, have had this conversation about all that and I am not sure, my brother included, that his generation of young men were psychologically ready to handle the rigors of what they were about to see and
encounter. I think that caused a lot of the psychological problems they were having. They just had no clue of what they were about to experience. Some couldn’t handle it unfortunately.
SH: So how do you feel as a whole, as your family as a whole, having so many who served in
them. How do you feel the Vietnam War had changed your family?
BM: Oh, probably of all the wars that my family experienced through my brothers, it would have
to be the Vietnam War and what happened to the younger brother. We all were and still are impacted by it. It will never go away.
SH: Do you feel that it's brought you closer together as a family, or maybe farther apart as a
family? In what ways do you feel it's impacted you the most?
BM: Well, as a family, we are a small family but we have always been close. So in that respect it
didn’t separate us in any way. Probably it brought us a little closer but the one thing, is its sad it’s just sheer sadness for us as a family. Because I have a brother who is still alive but I can’t talk to him, I can’t interact with him, and neither can my mom. My brothers occasionally are able to make contact with him and he will talk with them for a short period of time. But it's hard—
SH: From a distance—
BM: And we have just accepted it but sometimes, like just a minute ago when you had
mentioned it to me, when you really think about it, it's heart-wrenching—to know that someone is here, that close, and you can’t have any interaction with them. It's not because you don’t want to. It’s because they just can't.
SH: Right. So do you know if your brother that served in Vietnam, does he keep in touch with
any other veterans?
BM: No, not at all.
SH: And your brother that served in Korea, does he keep in touch with any of the veterans? BM: I think he did, but he has since passed away, but he did. Yeah, my other two brothers that
were in Korea, sure, they definitely have people that they have relationships with, really long relationships, even now that they're retired.
SH: Well, Betty, I would like to give you a few minutes or whatever. Do you have anything else
that you would like to share with us about your family or about your experiences? Anything to do with Vietnam? They have all served so proudly and we are so grateful for their service.
BM: As a family I can tell you that we feel nothing but honored for the things that my brothers
did, for serving in the military and for serving us as a family, and as a nation. We're extremely proud, and there was something else I was going to say but I can’t think. But overall, we’re extremely proud, having said that about my brothers and my family. There are many families that maybe didn’t have any of their sons come back. But you know, all of my brothers came back from both wars, so in a way we feel blessed that they did. We all as a family honor all people that serve in the military. Obviously, from what I have just told you, it is pretty important to us, so we are honored.
SH: Betty, thank you so much for being here today. We appreciate you so much. BM: Well thank you, I appreciate being here.
